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Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:41 PM
A great play by Howell on a pick of printers- he runs it down to the Bc 15ish...

but a penality call on terry ray for roughing the passer.


Then Tray explodes, and goes after the ref, bumping him and getting ejected..

Touchdown Vaughn
07-22-2004, 09:42 PM
I just watched Terry Ray make an idiot of himself and get ejected.

Yes, it was a bad call and it gave the Lions a TD when Winny should have had an interception, but that reaction was unacceptable from a vet. That attitude comes from Ritchie. That's why he's the worst coach in the league. He thinks yelling and acting angry is the way to coach, so then his players act like morons, too.

Angelus
07-22-2004, 09:44 PM
You don't think any Esks player would not have reacted in the same way? C'mon...

How about Ed Hervey last year?

Has nothing to do with the coach. That was a horrible call and could make all the difference. Now it's 34-12 (instead of being 27-12 with the Bombers threatening) and it's pretty much over.

Terry Ray knows that.

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:45 PM
Angelus - how do you merge threads together.. I want to put my thread into this one.. but can't find out how

Angelus
07-22-2004, 09:46 PM
You do it under Thread Tools. Already done...

Touchdown Vaughn
07-22-2004, 09:46 PM
That has a lot to coaching and leadership. A team often reflects the attitude of their coach.

Plus, Hervey was not going after an official, he was going after a member of the opposition. Still bad, but players should know it's pointless to argue with the refs.

I agree it was a horrible call.

But I hate Ritchie so I don't care.

Touchdown Vaughn
07-22-2004, 09:47 PM
And by the way, if an Esks player reacted that way, I would have harsh criticism for him as well.

Touchdown Vaughn
07-22-2004, 09:48 PM
Winnipeg isn't playing well enough to deserve to be in this game anyway.

Angelus
07-22-2004, 09:48 PM
And by the way, if an Esks player reacted that way, I would have harsh criticism for him as well.
I understand that.

But would you have blamed Higgins for it?

That's all I'm saying...

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:49 PM
I dont think it has to do with the coaches... Sure Ritchie's attitude rubs off on his players sometimes.. but not in this case...Terry Ray just lose his cool on a miscall and he went a bit to far... TRay plays with alot of emotion and he let it get to him a bit too much this time IMO

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:50 PM
Winnipeg isn't playing well enough to deserve to be in this game anyway.



No they certainly aren't...

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:51 PM
Hrmmm now with the desk showing the replay, Ray did smack Printers in the head with his arm - and that will almost allways be called..

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 09:51 PM
Does anyone know what happened to Carter ?

Touchdown Vaughn
07-22-2004, 09:52 PM
Schultz is defending the refs cuz Ray's hand went to Printers head on the hit.

I guess I think the coach always has to bear some responsibility. I also feel with Ritchie's track record it's easier to put blame on him for something like that. I see your point though.

I've seen a lot of junior hockey, though, and teams that fight a lot and are chippy usually have a hot headed coach. Maybe not a direct comparison but I feel as a generalization it's a valid point.

Angelus
07-22-2004, 10:02 PM
I knew immediately that it was the hit to the head that was called. It annoyed me that Suitor went on and on about him leaving his feet...

But, I still think there has to be some discretion used. Did Ray grazing his helmet affect the play at all? Did it risk injury to Printers?

That should not be called IMO.

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 10:12 PM
any shot to the head no matter how soft it is will prolly be called 99 % of the time

Green Blood
07-22-2004, 10:47 PM
Does anyone know what happened to Carter ?

Torn bicep.

Gone for the season.

Diesel
07-22-2004, 11:01 PM
I understand that.

But would you have blamed Higgins for it?

That's all I'm saying...

Ultimately it's the coach who sets the tone for his team and how they behave on the field.

Esks4ever
07-22-2004, 11:02 PM
Torn bicep.

Gone for the season.




ouch

MEEZY
07-22-2004, 11:16 PM
I tend to agree with Diesel here; Ritchie's Bombers have been undisciplined for the last few years now, and tonight was the pinnacle of that. His attitude towards the refs is dispicable, and it's the reason his team behaves the way they do. Near the end of the game, they did a close up on Ritchie talking to the team on the sidelines, and I did hear the words "The Refs stink" come out of his mouth. If he had told the players that they stink (which is the truth, given tonight's proceedings), then the team would have focused on what was lacking: their inspired play. Instead, they continued to focus on the officiating, and as a result, they grew more undisciplined and did not concentrate on their play, as they believed that the referees, and not their lack of effort, were responsible for the game's outcome.

Terry Ray is an emotionally intense player, which is definitely an asset, but like Hervey last Labour Day, he went way too far. As Schultz pointed out, the call was a good one. He needs to redirect his anger into delivering solid hits rather than yabbering at the refs.

Esks4ever
07-23-2004, 08:34 AM
And you complain about me posting during too much during a game... :rolleyes:


you know what I don't have to explain my self to you - I refuse to be goated into a fight which will not be helpful to either one of us.

Esk Reporter
07-23-2004, 10:08 AM
Ultimately it's the coach who sets the tone for his team and how they behave on the field.

I understand that the coach has some responsibility for the way the players act on the field, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the players. Regardless of what the coach does or does not do, the player makes the final decision. For this to be blamed on Ritchie is a 'cop out', but then again, it has become the norm for society to blame everybody but the ones that actually do the deed :sure:

Diesel
07-23-2004, 10:43 AM
I understand that the coach has some responsibility for the way the players act on the field, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the players. Regardless of what the coach does or does not do, the player makes the final decision. For this to be blamed on Ritchie is a 'cop out', but then again, it has become the norm for society to blame everybody but the ones that actually do the deed :sure:


Yes but if that behavior continues over and over , then the coach is resposible for correcting that behavior or making a change. As a HC everything your football team does lands at your feet.

Esk Reporter
07-23-2004, 11:08 AM
Yes but if that behavior continues over and over , then the coach is resposible for correcting that behavior or making a change. As a HC everything your football team does lands at your feet.

Do you really believe that a coach can change the way his players behave? These are grown men that have probably been acting this way since they started playing football. I see this kind of behaviour where I coach and it boils down to a general lack of respect for authority. The player knows everything and the coach does not know what they are talking about.

I think that while a coach may have some successes when it comes to changing the way a player behaves, overall, he is doomed to failure. So, what we are really left with is changing the personnel. Personally, I would like to see more coaches giving the 'heave-ho' to guys that are habitually taking these kinds of penalties...but I am not going to hold my breath.

Diesel
07-23-2004, 11:21 AM
Do you really believe that a coach can change the way his players behave?


Most certainly I do. I've seen it and experienced it as both a player and coach. It's all in the ability to handle people and some coaches are good at it and some are not.



I see this kind of behaviour where I coach and it boils down to a general lack of respect for authority. The player knows everything and the coach does not know what they are talking about.


Comparing Amateur sports to pro sports is not the best analogy because in pro sports a player's livelyhood is ultimately at stake. Reaching a player in minor sports is not always easy but once you find a way inside his head, the results are far more dramatic than compared to an adult.

Y2C
07-23-2004, 11:40 AM
After the call on Ray (B.S. by the way, but what can you do?) the game was officially over for the Bombers.

Esks4ever
07-23-2004, 12:00 PM
Lighten up... It's all in good fun E4E.. don't get all angry. :lol:

Laughing is good for you... well sometimes.


I know its hard to tell ones emotion on here. but I assure you i wasn't even the slightest Mad..

Diesel
07-23-2004, 12:37 PM
I don't think that was the least of your problems... you've got some major problems on D to get fixed up before you come into Commonwealth or else you're going to get torched again.


I hope they don't change a thing!

Esk Reporter
07-23-2004, 02:08 PM
Most certainly I do. I've seen it and experienced it as both a player and coach. It's all in the ability to handle people and some coaches are good at it and some are not.


I do not doubt that it can happen, I just don't believe that the success rate is very good (20-30%). One of the first things that happens is that personalities get in the way and then the skill of the coach is not as effective.




Comparing Amateur sports to pro sports is not the best analogy because in pro sports a player's livelyhood is ultimately at stake. Reaching a player in minor sports is not always easy but once you find a way inside his head, the results are far more dramatic than compared to an adult.

While there is merit to what you are saying, a players personality can get in the way of even the most well intentioned coach. I think it has more to do with the player than it does with the skill/ability of a coach to influence a change in behaviour.

Diesel
07-23-2004, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel
Most certainly I do. I've seen it and experienced it as both a player and coach. It's all in the ability to handle people and some coaches are good at it and some are not.



I do not doubt that it can happen, I just don't believe that the success rate is very good (20-30%). One of the first things that happens is that personalities get in the way and then the skill of the coach is not as effective.


But it's those few guys who can do it who wind up being the best coaches. I know you hate the guy but Matthews is one of those guys who's real good at reaching pro atheletes and holds them accountable. You may not like his style or methods but there are countless current and former players who would run through a wall for the guy. I've seen him work his magic with players and it's amazing the way he can get into a guy's head sometimes.

My own experience came from my fastball coach when I was 18. I thought I knew all there was to hitting and no one was going to tell me any different but my coach after several long chats about things other than fastball made me realize that crushing the ball 2 out of 10 times wasn't as good as getting on base 4 or 5 out of ten times. When I bought into what he was getting accross I was much more open to accept his ideas and he made me a .400 hitter.

Coaching in a way is no different than managing in business. The key is to find what makes each guy tick and what motivates him. When you find that out then it's much easier to make them act in a way that's productive to what you need them to do.



While there is merit to what you are saying, a players personality can get in the way of even the most well intentioned coach. I think it has more to do with the player than it does with the skill/ability of a coach to influence a change in behaviour.


It's a mix of the two. Certain players will respond to certain types of coaches. The key is to recognize those type of players and surround yourself with as many of them as possible.

Don told me once that he believes there are 4 types of players. 1. Players who are great and who know it. 2. Players who are great but don't think they are, yet they keep trying. 3. Players who will never be great but never give up in trying to be. 4. Players who will never be great and who know it.

If you have enough of #2 & #3 who believe in your system, your team will be great.

Touchdown Vaughn
07-23-2004, 05:01 PM
Well said, Diesel.

By the way, I'm not saying Ray doesn't deserve blame for going off. He does. That was stupid. But Ritchie deserves blame for creating a culture where that behaviour can creep in. He constantly bitches about the refs and disrespects refs and opponents. Therefore, it is going to rub off on his players. Sure, a player could lost it under any coach but the Bombers have shown a pattern of undisciplined behaviour with Ritchie as their coach.

hgtff
07-24-2004, 11:22 AM
yeah, it's ritchies fault that terry ray exploded, give me a break. I believe that it was more of a case where guys like ray, and wickman and stegall (who all got objectionable conduct penalties) were already frustrated with some of the players on the team for looking like they didn't give a damn the way they were playing (ray wickman and stegall all give it everything they have everyplay) and being already frustrated just led to them exploding when the refs made questionable calls. And on the postgame show ryland wickman said that the biggest frustration wasn't that the roughing the passer call was made it was that the flag wasn't thrown until howell was up and running the int the other way. the players felt that the refs were seeing the bombers make a big play that MAY have changed the outcome and decided to give them a penalty because of that. (right or wrong, it's easy to feel that as a player, i know it's happened to me during intramural sports)