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Thread: The Tillman "Collateral Damage" thread.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by pizmo View Post
    Good point. More 'food' for thought. When was the first black head coach hired in the NFL?
    In the modern era, it was Art Shell, Oakland Raiders in 1990, then Denny Green in 1992
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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    In the modern era, it was Art Shell, Oakland Raiders in 1990, then Denny Green in 1992
    Then of course the first NFL coach pre modern era was Fritz Pollard with the Akron Pros in 1921.
    Check out my stuff on Avrysports.com

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    My act is wearing thin? People are now accusing the man of being Racist, and MY act is getting thin?

    The guy comes from a Family who was on the KKK death list because they were black rights activists - his wife is Asian and you think I should sit quite as some internet *******s call the man racist?

    tell you what Quake YOUR ACT is getting thin

    you know nothing about the man - or his charities -
    tell me why Richie Hall should have been kept - explain why removing him is RACISM
    So what act would that be Spin Doctor? Just stating a fact. Actually the small town Preacher's boy, were I grew up, was one of the biggest hell raisers in town.

    Yep your right, I know nothing about about Eric Tillman other than HE PLED GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A MINOR. Oh ya, he's the GM of the EEFC. Thats all I know. Oh ya he has spikey red hair.

    Explain to me where I was playing the race card?
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by quake View Post
    So what act would that be Spin Doctor? Just stating a fact. Actually the small town Preacher's boy, were I grew up, was one of the biggest hell raisers in town.

    Yep your right, I know nothing about about Eric Tillman other than HE PLED GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A MINOR. Oh ya, he's the GM of the EEFC. Thats all I know. Oh ya he has spikey red hair.

    Explain to me where I was playing the race card?
    look beat him up all you want on the plead guilty to a summary matter that was the lowest level offense he could possibly be charged with
    ignore that he received an absolute discharge which is the courts way of saying to the prosecution "grow up an apology will do"
    ignore the support of the family
    ignore the impact of some powerful meds
    and ignore that the JUDGE said it was completely out of character and that he was perceived as being zero risk to re-offend

    what I was responding to was a person who said - he fired two black coaches and has never hired a black head coach
    who then said he comes from the deep south - and implied that he may be racist and not even know it

    that is an allegation or racism - be as obtuse as you like

    what did I do? I gave you the man's history -

    you implied that just because his father did those things that there is no evidence ET shares his father's belief - which in context with the post I was responding to and in context with the facts that I posted is nothing more than a veiled accusation that he is Racist - so I asked about the ethnicity of Eric's wife

    you respond by going back to the Charges -

    so don't piss in my ear and tell me its raining -

    I do not go out of my way to praise ET - I go out of my way to defend him when someone else decides to make the effort of bashing him

    if you don't want to see my response - don't bash him - or bash him on a football related topic - but don't tell me you have a right to bash and that I should just shut up about it

    not going to happen
    Last edited by Rotor; 12-08-2010 at 07:11 AM.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    if you don't want to see my response - don't bash him - or bash him on a football related topic - but don't tell me you have a right to bash and that I should just shut up about it

    and if you don't like people bashing him on a ESKS FAN WEBSITE, perhaps u should just stick to the Riders fan sites.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    look beat him up all you want on the plead guilty to a summary matter that was the lowest level offense he could possibly be charged with
    ignore that he received an absolute discharge which is the courts way of saying to the prosecution "grow up an apology will do"
    ignore the support of the family
    ignore the impact of some powerful meds
    and ignore that the JUDGE said it was completely out of character and that he was perceived as being zero risk to re-offend

    what I was responding to was a person who said - he fired two black coaches and has never hired a black head coach
    who then said he comes from the deep south - and implied that he may be racist and not even know it

    that is an allegation or racism - be as obtuse as you like

    what did I do? I gave you the man's history -

    you implied that just because his father did those things that there is no evidence ET shares his father's belief - which in context with the post I was responding to and in context with the facts that I posted is nothing more than a veiled accusation that he is Racist - so I asked about the ethnicity of Eric's wife

    you respond by going back to the Charges -

    so don't piss in my ear and tell me its raining -

    I do not go out of my way to praise ET - I go out of my way to defend him when someone else decides to make the effort of bashing him

    if you don't want to see my response - don't bash him - or bash him on a football related topic - but don't tell me you have a right to bash and that I should just shut up about it

    not going to happen
    Then don't tell me that his father is a preacher and therefore he should have some advantage in the eyes of the general public. ET is obviously his own man and his fathers background don't mean **** to me. You put that out there because you thought it would change peoples idea of ERIC Tillman. ERIC Tillman's problems are because of ERIC Tillman. His good attributes are because of ERIC Tillman. No one else. Not once did I claim that ERIC Tillman is a racist and you can try to discredit me by doing that. Whatever Spin Doctor. Start throwing crap against the wall and see what sticks.
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks4ever View Post
    and if you don't like people bashing him on a ESKS FAN WEBSITE, perhaps u should just stick to the Riders fan sites.
    Why?
    because anyone who would consider defending the GM of the Esks on an Esk board is what a troll? Thought this is a discussion board - I don't like when he gets bashed - so I respond - its called dialogging back and forth - both sides being represented - or is there a rule out there that suggests only Eskimo fans who do not like GM are allowed to post their thoughts?

    and Like I said after the Riders I cheer for Edm weird but true

    and the reason is Historically you guys have done a better job at retaining and utilizing Riders - see Campbell, Ron Lancaster and now Tillman

    heck I'm surprised you guys never scooped and utilized George Reed

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by quake View Post
    Then don't tell me that his father is a preacher and therefore he should have some advantage in the eyes of the general public. ET is obviously his own man and his fathers background don't mean **** to me. You put that out there because you thought it would change peoples idea of ERIC Tillman. ERIC Tillman's problems are because of ERIC Tillman. His good attributes are because of ERIC Tillman. No one else. Not once did I claim that ERIC Tillman is a racist and you can try to discredit me by doing that. Whatever Spin Doctor. Start throwing crap against the wall and see what sticks.
    DUH of course I did - when you are raised in a family that people are threatening to kill because you support black rights - it tends to stick with you and when you marry a person of another race it tends to discredit any one who would suggest you are a racist

    sure he is his own man - but these factors influence who you are - and what you believe in - if anyone on this board ever discussed Race with Eric it is very obvious he shares the same views as his father - and he is very proud of the fact that his family has supported the black rights movement

    no you never came out and said he is racist - you merely indirectly supported a post that suggested he could be and then attempted to discredit my post which gave very personal reasons why any suggestion of racism is off base

    not exactly calling him a racist but clearly attempting to keep the possibility of it on the table - what is evidently clear is that you have no problem with someone suggesting that he could be racist - but you sure have a problem with anyone who would actually attempt discredit that notion

    so put me on ignore
    Last edited by Rotor; 12-08-2010 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    look beat him up all you want on the plead guilty to a summary matter that was the lowest level offense he could possibly be charged with
    ignore that he received an absolute discharge which is the courts way of saying to the prosecution "grow up an apology will do"
    ignore the support of the family
    ignore the impact of some powerful meds
    and ignore that the JUDGE said it was completely out of character and that he was perceived as being zero risk to re-offend

    what I was responding to was a person who said - he fired two black coaches and has never hired a black head coach
    who then said he comes from the deep south - and implied that he may be racist and not even know it

    that is an allegation or racism - be as obtuse as you like

    what did I do? I gave you the man's history -

    you implied that just because his father did those things that there is no evidence ET shares his father's belief - which in context with the post I was responding to and in context with the facts that I posted is nothing more than a veiled accusation that he is Racist - so I asked about the ethnicity of Eric's wife

    you respond by going back to the Charges -

    so don't piss in my ear and tell me its raining -

    I do not go out of my way to praise ET - I go out of my way to defend him when someone else decides to make the effort of bashing him

    if you don't want to see my response - don't bash him - or bash him on a football related topic - but don't tell me you have a right to bash and that I should just shut up about it

    not going to happen
    I love how you always convienently avoid the actual charge and substitute it with continually with a summary matter = Spin

    I love how you always blame the meds, yet in other criminal acts, being under the influence of drugs or alcohol is never an excuse for the crime committed = Spin

    I love how you refer to the legal process as if there was an actual trial, because all we had was statements before a judge which Tillspin plead guilty to to avoid a trial and cross examination = Spin

    I love how you always choose to look at the punishment given as a sumary of the act and ignore the guilty plea to a sexual crime aianst a child = Spin

    I love how you go over the top any time someone casts aspersions based on Tillspin's factual record and go on the offensive labelling people to deflect criticism of your beloved "Le Flamma Blanco"= Spin

    I love how you continue to remind me of a real life honnest to goodness Stevie Janowski
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
    - Dan Kepley

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    DUH of course I did - when you are raised in a family that people are threatening to kill because you support black rights - it tends to stick with you and when you marry a person of another race it tends to discredit any one who would suggest you are a racist

    sure he is his own man - but these factors influence who you are - and what you believe in - if anyone on this board ever discussed Race with Eric it is very obvious he shares the same views as his father - and he is very proud of the fact that his family has supported the black rights movement

    no you never came out and said he is racist - you merely indirectly supported a post that suggested he could be and then attempted to discredit my post which gave very personal reasons why any suggestion of racism is off base

    not exactly calling him a racist but clearly attempting to keep the possibility of it on the table - what is evidently clear is that you have no problem with someone suggesting that he could be racist - but you sure have a problem with anyone who would actually attempt discredit that notion

    so put me on ignore
    That's great Eric and I applaud you for supporting the black rights movement. It is a very honorable thing.

    However all the good things you have done in your lifetime can be wiped out by a single indiscretion. If you didn't know that 2 years ago, I bet you know that now.

    Do you honestly think everything your father believed in filtered down to you? I don't know. I don't know your father and I really don't know you. I already outlined I only have the most basic knowledge of you. Maybe you should hire a PR firm to help you with your rep in this town.

    I did have you on ignore but I took you off because when you get beyond the spin, I enjoy your posts.

    You can read into my posts whatever you want, but in this case, WRONG.

    Oh BTW, don't duh me, it only belittles yourself.
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    I love how you always convienently avoid the actual charge and substitute it with continually with a summary matter = Spin

    I love how you always blame the meds, yet in other criminal acts, being under the influence of drugs or alcohol is never an excuse for the crime committed = Spin

    I love how you refer to the legal process as if there was an actual trial, because all we had was statements before a judge which Tillspin plead guilty to to avoid a trial and cross examination = Spin

    I love how you always choose to look at the punishment given as a sumary of the act and ignore the guilty plea to a sexual crime aianst a child = Spin

    I love how you go over the top any time someone casts aspersions based on Tillspin's factual record and go on the offensive labelling people to deflect criticism of your beloved "Le Flamma Blanco"= Spin

    I love how you continue to remind me of a real life honnest to goodness Stevie Janowski
    I love how you conveniently ignore the ABSOLUTE DISCHARGE - SPIN
    I love how you ignore the judges comments - SPIN
    I love how you ignore the family's support - SPIN

    you SPIN as much as I do

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    I love how you conveniently ignore the ABSOLUTE DISCHARGE - SPIN
    I love how you ignore the judges comments - SPIN
    I love how you ignore the family's support - SPIN

    you SPIN as much as I do
    The family's support means absolutely squat in terms of ERIC PLEADING GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSUALT ON A MINOR
    The judges comments are merely his opinion in terms of sentencing and does not absolve ERIC PLEADING GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSUALT ON A MINOR
    The discharge does not erase the fact that ERIC PLEAD GUILTY!

    I call a spade a shovel buddy, you like to call it a "one piece earth materials leverage device"

    Big difference. When a man pleads guilty, he IS guilty. Period.
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
    - Dan Kepley

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by quake View Post
    That's great Eric and I applaud you for supporting the black rights movement. It is a very honorable thing.

    However all the good things you have done in your lifetime can be wiped out by a single indiscretion. If you didn't know that 2 years ago, I bet you know that now.

    Do you honestly think everything your father believed in filtered down to you? I don't know. I don't know your father and I really don't know you. I already outlined I only have the most basic knowledge of you. Maybe you should hire a PR firm to help you with your rep in this town.

    I did have you on ignore but I took you off because when you get beyond the spin, I enjoy your posts.

    You can read into my posts whatever you want, but in this case, WRONG.

    Oh BTW, don't duh me, it only belittles yourself.
    OK you are correct the DUH was uncalled for I'm sorry
    however I am not ET
    I was ROTOR on RF when Shivers was GM and ERIC and still am under TAMAN

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    OK you are correct the DUH was uncalled for I'm sorry
    however I am not ET
    I was ROTOR on RF when Shivers was GM and ERIC and still am under TAMAN
    Accepted.
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    The family's support means absolutely squat in terms of ERIC PLEADING GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSUALT ON A MINOR
    The judges comments are merely his opinion in terms of sentencing and does not absolve ERIC PLEADING GUILTY TO SEXUAL ASSUALT ON A MINOR
    The discharge does not erase the fact that ERIC PLEAD GUILTY!

    I call a spade a shovel buddy, you like to call it a "one piece earth materials leverage device"

    Big difference. When a man pleads guilty, he IS guilty. Period.
    Actually an absolute discharge does erase it - at least in the eyes of the law - I know you have a higher standard then the law - fine

    and I have never said he is absolved - he has never said he is absolved -

    I just don't think it is relevent to whether or not he is going to make a good decision on hiring a coach
    or whether to retain Braidwood

    if the justice system says the event is so minor as it deserves to be erased and the family of the victim agrees - not sure why it needs to find its way into every thread about football

    I'm not telling you to forgive him -
    but I am saying anytime you want to discuss the issue - I will discuss it as well

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Well the next time Tillspin feeds you information to put out there to defend his tarnished name (because history tells us the Tillspin has used message boards extensively in the past, so it's no stretch of the imagination to see that he's using you as his Stevie Janowski) let him know he has a long way to go to snow over people in this town and it won't be as easy as it was in riderville. He doesn't pass the smell test at all.
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    I'm pretty sure I've seen this thread...oh...20 times already. I thought threads that stray off topic are supposed to be locked. At least they used to be...
    Quote from Inquiring Mind:

    Of course stamphater is sacred... we all worship the ground he walks on.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    Well the next time Tillspin feeds you information to put out there to defend his tarnished name (because history tells us the Tillspin has used message boards extensively in the past, so it's no stretch of the imagination to see that he's using you as his Stevie Janowski) let him know he has a long way to go to snow over people in this town and it won't be as easy as it was in riderville. He doesn't pass the smell test at all.
    We have had Rider fans here in the past. And some are good posters. And some may even support Tillman.

    But I don't get why a certain "Rider" poster seems so intent on discussing Eskimo football. At least any Eskimo football that has a Tillman connection and will defend Tillman to the death.

    Is he trying to change someone's mind? That seems like the agenda. And it is being done by an average Rider fan? Someone that knows intimate details?

    Like Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true".

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Something like that
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
    - Dan Kepley

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    Well the next time Tillspin feeds you information to put out there to defend his tarnished name (because history tells us the Tillspin has used message boards extensively in the past, so it's no stretch of the imagination to see that he's using you as his Stevie Janowski) let him know he has a long way to go to snow over people in this town and it won't be as easy as it was in riderville. He doesn't pass the smell test at all.
    you see this is where I take offense -
    this board alternately pretends either that ET feeds me every word
    or
    pretends that I have no inside information at all

    if I do get my info from ET - you should be giving my opinion on issues far more consideration

    if I do not get my information from ET then you should quit calling me Stevie Janowski

    I had contacts with the Riders long before ET arrived - and continue to have them

    I had more contacts in the Eskimo organization with Hall as your coach - than I do now

    you are accurate in saying ET was active on the Rider boards - but RF has over 10,000 users with several hundred on at any given moment

    and he posted himself

    quite frankly your membership is too small and far too homogeneous for him to care enough to show up just to be constantly bashed- if it were not a constant insult to him he might show up one day - as chief of the Anti Tillman crew do you really think your opinion matters enough for him to contact some random Riderfan to feed me information

    I post what I know - and what has been made public - and I speculate well -
    Last edited by Rotor; 12-08-2010 at 09:59 AM.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bobby View Post
    We have had Rider fans here in the past. And some are good posters. And some may even support Tillman.

    But I don't get why a certain "Rider" poster seems so intent on discussing Eskimo football. At least any Eskimo football that has a Tillman connection and will defend Tillman to the death.

    Is he trying to change someone's mind? That seems like the agenda. And it is being done by an average Rider fan? Someone that knows intimate details?

    Like Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true".
    We also have 'certain' Eskimo posters here who are doing the exact same thing...
    Quote from Inquiring Mind:

    Of course stamphater is sacred... we all worship the ground he walks on.

    #PizStrong

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    quite frankly your membership is too small and far too homogeneous for him to care enough to show up just to be constantly bashed
    How do you know the above statement
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by quake View Post
    How do you know the above statement
    pure speculation - but I think i would recognize his writing style

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    pure speculation - but I think i would recognize his writing style
    Ok
    It was a very specific answer on why he's not posting here.
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bobby View Post
    We have had Rider fans here in the past. And some are good posters. And some may even support Tillman.

    But I don't get why a certain "Rider" poster seems so intent on discussing Eskimo football. At least any Eskimo football that has a Tillman connection and will defend Tillman to the death.

    Is he trying to change someone's mind? That seems like the agenda. And it is being done by an average Rider fan? Someone that knows intimate details?

    Like Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true".
    Well you will note any time you guys are actually talking football - I participate in that - I sure enjoy the speculation about the coaching changes and player changes
    and like I said - I don't just randomly sing the guys praises - but I certainly respond when others want to discuss the other issues - I'm not like the guy who is so obsessed he made his AVATAR into an offensive message to the man -

    simply put - if you aren't going out of your way to bad mouth the man - I'm not going out of my way to discuss him

    so who is obsessed - the people who constantly bring him up - or the one who responds?

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by quake View Post
    Ok
    It was a very specific answer on why he's not posting here.
    my opinion?
    if the site administrators would force Diesel to take down his AVY - and if he felt that the discussion around here was more centered around beating him up for football related issues - than the court issue

    you guys would likely see him start to post - and would really enjoy the insight he would bring to the board

    challenge him on football - he may get annoyed but certainly responds
    but the nonsense I get dragged into about the case? and the name calling - I imagine that keeps him away

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    Diesel's Avatar
    Diesel is offline The Ayatolla of Rye & Cola

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    Well you will note any time you guys are actually talking football - I participate in that - I sure enjoy the speculation about the coaching changes and player changes
    and like I said - I don't just randomly sing the guys praises - but I certainly respond when others want to discuss the other issues - I'm not like the guy who is so obsessed he made his AVATAR into an offensive message to the man -

    simply put - if you aren't going out of your way to bad mouth the man - I'm not going out of my way to discuss him

    so who is obsessed - the people who constantly bring him up - or the one who responds?
    Offensive huh? It's the TRUTH! Every single word
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
    - Dan Kepley

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    Diesel is offline The Ayatolla of Rye & Cola

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    my opinion?
    if the site administrators would force Diesel to take down his AVY - and if he felt that the discussion around here was more centered around beating him up for football related issues - than the court issue

    you guys would likely see him start to post - and would really enjoy the insight he would bring to the board

    challenge him on football - he may get annoyed but certainly responds
    but the nonsense I get dragged into about the case? and the name calling - I imagine that keeps him away
    Or it's easier to have someone do it for him in a market where he is not god-like as he was before. Make no mistake, we've confirmed for years that the EEFC monitors this site very regularly, and I'd wager Tillspin's own message board history suggests he does to.
    I hit them as hard as I could on the mouth right from the start of the game so they were thinking this was going to be a long day. Sooner or later one of us had to quit. And it wasn't going to be me.
    - Dan Kepley

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Not saying it isn't - but you are clearly going out of your way to wave it in everyones face - not sure why that is but you must have some personal reason why

    and note I was saying "Offensive to ET" - I don't think its appropriate but it does not make me angry either

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    Re: Naylor: Kavis Reed to be next Eskimos' head coach

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
    my opinion?
    if the site administrators would force Diesel to take down his AVY - and if he felt that the discussion around here was more centered around beating him up for football related issues - than the court issue

    you guys would likely see him start to post - and would really enjoy the insight he would bring to the board

    challenge him on football - he may get annoyed but certainly responds
    but the nonsense I get dragged into about the case? and the name calling - I imagine that keeps him away
    Honestly it doesn't matter to me if ET posts here. Speculation is way more fun.
    When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know.

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