View Poll Results: Should Mass be fired?

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  • Yes

    20 23.26%
  • No

    60 69.77%
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Thread: Should Maas be fired?

  1. #631
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Whatever happens, it won’t be announced until the morning of November 26th.

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by dealerd View Post
    I'm seriously hoping for major shake up for our beloved Eskies but as each and every day goes by I feel like there will be no changes made as we finished 9-9 and if that happens at the very least I want a new DC,OC and ST coaches
    We've been to two division finals in three seasons under Maas. Yes, this year was disappointing, but blowing it up over a 9-9 season is ludicrous to me. Hugh Campbell used to have a saying that every change to the starters was good for one loss in the standings the next year - underscoring the importance of continuity. There is a reason why successful organizations have stability and stay the course... look at the Esks dynasty years, or even the continuity through the Hufnagel years in Calgary. Blowing things up, firing the HC or putting in all new Coordinators is a recipe for disaster unless you're fully on the wrong path. I don't think there is an argument to be made that from a Football Ops standpoint, we are fully on the wrong path.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmbuk View Post
    Flip side is reilly is also heading into a unseen situation.. no idea who his hc will be no idea who is Oc will be and if he can be effective in that mans system.. Mike wants to win and win now.. big risks involved making a jump into the unknown.. Jason maas has been good for mike Reilly as Much as mike Reilly has been good for Jason maas

    Jasonís offence works.. we know this..
    if we loose Reilly. But keep maas. Iím confident whomever we bring in can have the same production as mike, had.. I base this on the fact Burris had outstanding produvfion under maas previous to mike getting behind the wheel of Jasonís car..

    U have to hope that whomever Jason hands the keys to will be able to have the same success as the previous two owners..


    That said. Obv I want us to keep mike Reilly..
    This. Well... most of this.

    I believe that if you move from Reilly to the next best option (and there is no guarantee of that), that it is a step back.

    The Morley Scott interview with Reilly today backs up so much of what you point to - his desire for avoiding the unknown - his passion to win - his belief in the commitment that Maas has to improving and to the EEFC. As with Hervey, anyone you replace Maas with, will not have the same inherent passion for the team - they may be great at the job, but they will not bleed Green and Gold like Ed and Jason do.

    Mike is his authentic self in this interview - he is every bit this guy whether in front of the microphone or not... save for a little more trash-talk - and it is well worth a listen if you want to see an athlete not speaking in cliches, not sugar-coating things and saying what the audience wants to here, but also conducting himself with class, respect and appreciation. It was great to hear him talk about Coach Maas and say that if they spoke, and all he had to say was that he thought they'd been unlucky and didn't want to change anything, he'd have issues with that - instead, he knows that Maas learned a lot from this season and has ideas as to what to do next year to get better.

    Coaches don't get dumb overnight. This isn't a guy that is on the downside - this is a rising coach. As pointed out in the interview, Maas had a better record than June Jones in a tougher division, and no one is likely to be calling for Jones' head. Time to slow your roll for those calling for massive overhauls and shake ups.

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?


    "No dress rehearsal, this is our life" - Gord Downie

  4. #634
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoagogo View Post

    Yes, I heard it. Great news!
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  5. #635

    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I think part of the problem with the defense was system but I think a good chunk of it was personnel. I don't think their secondary was close to good enough. While it is great they didn't give up a TD, they still allowed the oppositions defense a ton of time to sit and rest so they are fresh and they still took away a ton of playing time for your offense because your defense can't get off the field.
    So are you saying the many stretches where the Edmonton offence couldnít score for a whole quarter or two was the fault of Edmontonís defence?

    Isnít it the job of the Eskimo offence to stay on the field?

  6. #636
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Well, that probably is good news as far as Mike Reilly is concerned. I hope the relationship is as a strong as suggested.

    Personally, I'd have liked to see him kick the tires on some external options. I think when you underachieve, it's sometimes a good thing to get a few different perspectives on how things can change. Another experienced voice wouldn't hurt on the offensive side of the ball.

    I'm curious to see what is done with the defence and with special teams. Though I'm not a huge fan of his defensive schemes, Benevides likely was a good mentor and experienced ear for Maas to listen to. If he goes, I really hope they find another way to address experience on the sidelines.

  7. #637
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce LeeRoy View Post
    So are you saying the many stretches where the Edmonton offence couldn’t score for a whole quarter or two was the fault of Edmonton’s defence?

    Isn’t it the job of the Eskimo offence to stay on the field?
    The job of the offense is to score points. Did they have their struggles, Yes they did. I think part of the offenses problem was protection issues. When the offense sputtered in the middle to last 1/3 of the season, Reilly was getting crushed and sacked a lot. But I see an offense that produced a 1063 yard rusher in 16 games. If he plays all 18, he's probably at least 1200. That's pretty good. I see an offense that produced a 5562 yard passer. That's pretty good. If the Esks gave him better protection, he goes over 6000 yards.

    Then I look at the defense and I took these stats from another thread thanks to T-Bone.


    The bad:
    Offensive Points Allowed: 7th
    Offensive TD Allowed: 6th
    Yards Against Per Play: 8th
    Net Yards Against: 6th
    Forced Turnovers: 6th
    Average Yards Per Rush: 8th
    Average Yards Per Pass: 8th
    Big Plays Against: 9th
    2 and Outs Forced: 7th
    TD Against Per Drive: 7th
    Defensive TD Scored: 9th

    Those defensive stats are sh!t. So yes, the offense is supposed to score points and stay on the field BUT the defense has the job to get OFF the field. They didn't. Game after game we saw the Esks defense start off deep in the oppositions own end and the opposition methodically move the ball up the field. Maybe they didn't get a TD but they would give up a short field goal. Meanwhile, your offense has been sitting on their ass for 5, 6, 7, 8, mins, maybe more because your defense can't get off the field. So your offense is cold and out of sync. Sometimes the QB has been sitting for so long, he has to re-warm up. The oppositions defense has been on the sidelines for so long, they would have time to make adjustments to what the offense is doing.
    Last edited by Sectionq; 11-09-2018 at 10:58 AM.
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    The job of the offense is to score points. Did they have their struggles, Yes they did. I think part of the offenses problem was protection issues. When the offense sputtered in the middle to last 1/3 of the season, Reilly was getting crushed and sacked a lot. But I see an offense that produced a 1063 yard rusher in 16 games. If he plays all 18, he's probably at least 1200. That's pretty good. I see an offense that produced a 5562 yard passer. That's pretty good. If the Esks gave him better protection, he goes over 6000 yards.

    Then I look at the defense and I took these stats from another thread thanks to T-Bone.


    The bad:
    Offensive Points Allowed: 7th
    Offensive TD Allowed: 6th
    Yards Against Per Play: 8th
    Net Yards Against: 6th
    Forced Turnovers: 6th
    Average Yards Per Rush: 8th
    Average Yards Per Pass: 8th
    Big Plays Against: 9th
    2 and Outs Forced: 7th
    TD Against Per Drive: 7th
    Defensive TD Scored: 9th

    Those defensive stats are sh!t. So yes, the offense is supposed to score points and stay on the field BUT the defense has the job to get OFF the field. They didn't. Game after game we saw the Esks defense start off deep in the oppositions own end and the opposition methodically move the ball up the field. Maybe they didn't get a TD but they would give up a short field goal. Meanwhile, your offense has been sitting on their ass for 5, 6, 7, 8, mins, maybe more because your defense can't get off the field. So your offense is cold and out of sync. Sometimes the QB has been sitting for so long, he has to re-warm up. The oppositions defense has been on the sidelines for so long, they would have time to make adjustments to what the offense is doing.
    the most damning stat of the bunch is that we played a conservative D (6th in forced turnovers) but still lead the league in big plays given up. If we are allowing the dink and dunk stuff, the downfield stuff should be covered.
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  9. #639
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    the most damning stat of the bunch is that we played a conservative D (6th in forced turnovers) but still lead the league in big plays given up. If we are allowing the dink and dunk stuff, the downfield stuff should be covered.
    I agree. That is why I think that while Bene's scheme wasn't amazing, the secondary flat out wasn't good enough. How many times did Maston as an example get picked on and just flat out beat. A lot. So the system you run isn't going to clean up if guys can't cover anyone. So while I didn't like Bene's system a lot of times, how much of what he called was strictly because he had no choice? I don't have that answer but if you have a secondary who sucks in coverage, I don't think the DC is going to want to call a lot of defense that requires your guys to go man on man.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    The job of the offense is to score points. Did they have their struggles, Yes they did. I think part of the offenses problem was protection issues. When the offense sputtered in the middle to last 1/3 of the season, Reilly was getting crushed and sacked a lot. But I see an offense that produced a 1063 yard rusher in 16 games. If he plays all 18, he's probably at least 1200. That's pretty good. I see an offense that produced a 5562 yard passer. That's pretty good. If the Esks gave him better protection, he goes over 6000 yards.

    Then I look at the defense and I took these stats from another thread thanks to T-Bone.


    The bad:
    Offensive Points Allowed: 7th
    Offensive TD Allowed: 6th
    Yards Against Per Play: 8th
    Net Yards Against: 6th
    Forced Turnovers: 6th
    Average Yards Per Rush: 8th
    Average Yards Per Pass: 8th
    Big Plays Against: 9th
    2 and Outs Forced: 7th
    TD Against Per Drive: 7th
    Defensive TD Scored: 9th

    Those defensive stats are sh!t. So yes, the offense is supposed to score points and stay on the field BUT the defense has the job to get OFF the field. They didn't. Game after game we saw the Esks defense start off deep in the oppositions own end and the opposition methodically move the ball up the field. Maybe they didn't get a TD but they would give up a short field goal. Meanwhile, your offense has been sitting on their ass for 5, 6, 7, 8, mins, maybe more because your defense can't get off the field. So your offense is cold and out of sync. Sometimes the QB has been sitting for so long, he has to re-warm up. The oppositions defense has been on the sidelines for so long, they would have time to make adjustments to what the offense is doing.
    This is just my impression so I'm not sure if I'm right about this and it wouldn't impact all of the defensive stats you have listed but it just seemed to me that the defense was always defending a shorter field while the offense also seemed to have to finish off really long drives in order to score. Starting field position always seemed to really suck on both sides of the ball. Doesn't mean that the offense and defense didn't have their issues but it might mean that special teams played a more significant role here. Does anybody happen to know the numbers for average starting field position for both our offense and our opponents offense?
    Last edited by adb; 11-09-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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  11. #641
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I agree. That is why I think that while Bene's scheme wasn't amazing, the secondary flat out wasn't good enough. How many times did Maston as an example get picked on and just flat out beat. A lot. So the system you run isn't going to clean up if guys can't cover anyone. So while I didn't like Bene's system a lot of times, how much of what he called was strictly because he had no choice? I don't have that answer but if you have a secondary who sucks in coverage, I don't think the DC is going to want to call a lot of defense that requires your guys to go man on man.
    I'm of the opinion that the answer lies somewhere in between the coordinator and the players but I don't have the game tape, nor do I know what is called, so i'll defer to the coaches.
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  12. #642
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the answer lies somewhere in between the coordinator and the players but I don't have the game tape, nor do I know what is called, so i'll defer to the coaches.
    You are probably right. If the coach has better players, would he call the defense differently that might have been more effective? Probably. I think back to when Jones was here and the Esks had Ojo and Watkins on the corners. Those guys gave up nothing. So Jones could have them play man on man all game and he never had to send a safety or anyone else to help them. So he had free rein to do anything he wanted. Same goes for the players. If the coach called a difference defense, could it had helped him a bit more? Maybe. But like I said, when you see players getting burned all the time for big plays and it didn't seem to be because it was a busted coverage, there was always an Esks player 3 steps behind so he just got burned, it's hard to imagine how you could call anything else.
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    You are probably right. If the coach has better players, would he call the defense differently that might have been more effective? Probably. I think back to when Jones was here and the Esks had Ojo and Watkins on the corners. Those guys gave up nothing. So Jones could have them play man on man all game and he never had to send a safety or anyone else to help them. So he had free rein to do anything he wanted. Same goes for the players. If the coach called a difference defense, could it had helped him a bit more? Maybe. But like I said, when you see players getting burned all the time for big plays and it didn't seem to be because it was a busted coverage, there was always an Esks player 3 steps behind so he just got burned, it's hard to imagine how you could call anything else.
    The reason I lean towards scheme before player is the success Jones has had in SEVERAL CFL franchises and you can guarantee he hasn't always had the best players. In 2015, we were using Ojo, watkins, Grymes, Young and Shavers. On the books it looks better than what we trotted out there this year but how much better?
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    The reason I lean towards scheme before player is the success Jones has had in SEVERAL CFL franchises and you can guarantee he hasn't always had the best players. In 2015, we were using Ojo, watkins, Grymes, Young and Shavers. On the books it looks better than what we trotted out there this year but how much better?
    I would say a lot better. Ojo was a star and went to the NFL right away. Watkins while older was still one of the best corners in the league. Grymes was a cheap but he was quickly becoming one of the best halfbacks in the league and went to the NFL not long after. Young was the weakest link but he was better than a few guys who started for the Esks this year and given that you had Ojo, Watkins and Grymes who didn't need help, you could send a safety over to him to give him a hand if needed.

    When I look at the Riders secondary right now. Butler is over 30 and as I ton of NFL experience. You have to be decent to be in the NFL that long Marshall is pretty good and bounced around the NFL for a while so he would have some skill. Gainey is really good, Edem is a good, Canadian safety, Purifoy is pretty good, bounced around the NFL a bit. They have Johnson who's getting long in the tooth as a back up but would probably start for the Esks. I guess the one thing is the Riders secondary is a bit older and more experienced than the Esks but no one from the Esks secondary would start for the Riders, maybe Grymes has an outside chance. Everyone on the Riders secondary could walk on to the Esks.
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by adb View Post
    This is just my impression so I'm not sure if I'm right about this and it wouldn't impact all of the defensive stats you have listed but it just seemed to me that the defense was always defending a shorter field while the offense also seemed to have to finish off really long drives in order to score. Starting field position always seemed to really suck on both sides of the ball. Doesn't mean that the offense and defense didn't have their issues but it might mean that special teams played a more significant role here. Does anybody happen to know the numbers for average starting field position for both our offense and our opponents offense?
    Though special teams wasn’t effective, particularly on the receiving end, they don’t shoulder all of the slanted field blame. I think the stats were only about 5 yards below average. Secondary and tertiary contributors were that the Esks offence had the most two and outs and though I don’t have the stats handy, I suspect the Defense has near the least. Basically the offence was too aggressive while defense too passive and this typically tilted the field gradually towards the other team especially as our special teams basically never tilted the field.
    Last edited by bone; 11-09-2018 at 01:49 PM.

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I would say a lot better. Ojo was a star and went to the NFL right away. Watkins while older was still one of the best corners in the league. Grymes was a cheap but he was quickly becoming one of the best halfbacks in the league and went to the NFL not long after. Young was the weakest link but he was better than a few guys who started for the Esks this year and given that you had Ojo, Watkins and Grymes who didn't need help, you could send a safety over to him to give him a hand if needed.

    When I look at the Riders secondary right now. Butler is over 30 and as I ton of NFL experience. You have to be decent to be in the NFL that long Marshall is pretty good and bounced around the NFL for a while so he would have some skill. Gainey is really good, Edem is a good, Canadian safety, Purifoy is pretty good, bounced around the NFL a bit. They have Johnson who's getting long in the tooth as a back up but would probably start for the Esks. I guess the one thing is the Riders secondary is a bit older and more experienced than the Esks but no one from the Esks secondary would start for the Riders, maybe Grymes has an outside chance. Everyone on the Riders secondary could walk on to the Esks.
    you may be right but the point I was trying to make is that Jones has always had a good defence and you can't tell me he's always had a great secondary. A good coordinator can get more out of their players a poor one uses them as an excuse for his failures.
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  17. #647
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    I am not debating that Jones is probably the best defensive coach in the CFL. I would also agree that he can probably elevate players to some degree. But I look at the Esks secondary when he was here and his defense was dominate, it was really good. I look at the Riders current defense which is really good and coincidentally, he's got some pretty good DB's. We started to see his defense take shape during last season. Edem was traded for last year. Butler was brought in last year in June and starting playing in July. This season they brought in Marshall to play the other corner and Purifoy was signed in August. The Riders and their defense started off slow but has taken off as the season has went on. So is it all Jones and his system? I don't think so. Plus if you swapped the Esks secondary for the Riders secondary, I have a hard time believing the Riders defense would be even close to being as good even with Jones calling the plays.
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by adb View Post
    This is just my impression so I'm not sure if I'm right about this and it wouldn't impact all of the defensive stats you have listed but it just seemed to me that the defense was always defending a shorter field while the offense also seemed to have to finish off really long drives in order to score. Starting field position always seemed to really suck on both sides of the ball. Doesn't mean that the offense and defense didn't have their issues but it might mean that special teams played a more significant role here. Does anybody happen to know the numbers for average starting field position for both our offense and our opponents offense?
    Esks: own 34.1 (7th in CFL)
    Opposition: own 37.3 (7th in CFL)

    League average on both sides were own 35.6

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I am not debating that Jones is probably the best defensive coach in the CFL. I would also agree that he can probably elevate players to some degree. But I look at the Esks secondary when he was here and his defense was dominate, it was really good. I look at the Riders current defense which is really good and coincidentally, he's got some pretty good DB's. We started to see his defense take shape during last season. Edem was traded for last year. Butler was brought in last year in June and starting playing in July. This season they brought in Marshall to play the other corner and Purifoy was signed in August. The Riders and their defense started off slow but has taken off as the season has went on. So is it all Jones and his system? I don't think so. Plus if you swapped the Esks secondary for the Riders secondary, I have a hard time believing the Riders defense would be even close to being as good even with Jones calling the plays.
    Agreed their secondary is better this year. I'm talking about year after year Jones putting one of the top defences in the league on the field. In 2014 he had Joe Burnett(5 starts), Grymes(18 starts), Alonzo Lawrence (11 starts), Chris Rwabukamba (12 starts) Eric Samuels (7 Starts), Pat Watkins (18 starts) and Marcel Young (15 starts).

    Some good players in that group but also a few not so great ones. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT giving our secondary a free pass as EVERYONE needs to own part of this season.
    Last edited by Looner; 11-09-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-BONE View Post
    Esks: own 34.1 (7th in CFL)
    Opposition: own 37.3 (7th in CFL)

    League average on both sides were own 35.6
    Is that on kickoffs or all possession changes.

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    Re: Should Maas be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Is that on kickoffs or all possession changes.
    That includes all possessions.

    Though I did find a nifty stat that shows the average starting opposition field position by kickoffs only (though it didn’t include teams offensive starting position oddly enough):

    Esks were 9th at 36.7. They were the only team past the 35 yard line. How McD kept his job for so long is anyone’s guess.

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