View Poll Results: Who Gets Your Support in the CBA Negotiations?

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  • #TeamCFLPA

    13 61.90%
  • CFL - Still need more solid footing

    3 14.29%
  • Undecided

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  • Don't care - just get it done!

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Thread: CFL CBA Situation

  1. #61
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by danlaurin View Post
    Remember how we victimized Marcel Young last season we cost him his job and drove him from the league.
    yep, cases like this can be found in ALL professional sports, especially those that live within a strict salary cap.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by danlaurin View Post
    Remember how we victimized Marcel Young last season we cost him his job and drove him from the league.
    Exactly. When you are starting a weaker player, a team will exploit it. Pretty soon other guys are getting out of position slightly to try and help which opens up more holes and it snowballs.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by danlaurin View Post
    I believe a full 53 man Roster and a 10 slot PR as in the NFL etc would solve a lot of this as there could be room for more specialists. CFL rosters are too small
    This is where I'd like to see the movement too... but it is again a matter of figuring out the balance that is right.

    Growing the roster by an additional 7 spots is about a 15% increase. While I believe that it would allow for more specialists, and more depth in case of injury, it is not likely to lead to more revenues to be able to offset the extra costs. If there is only so much money to go around, do you want to spread it around on more jobs, or do you want to see the guys with the jobs get more pay, and hope that the higher salaries helps attract better talent?

    I could see a move to a 48 man roster, with 46 active players, as something more manageable. You add 1 extra Global player spot, and either one extra import or one extra designated import spot depending on what they decide with the ratio/starters. The CFLPA will support something that creates more jobs, as long as there is a rise in the salary cap so that they're not getting paid by taking money that would have gone to other players - likely about $150k total for those two spots.

    Like with the other discussions, I think it starts with, "What do we want to accomplish and why?". If it's about getting the caliber of play higher, is that to attract more fans, or just to make the game better for the existing fans? If something comes with costs (more money for salaries or potential impact on Canadian development system) are the benefits gained enough to justify those costs? Will those benefits, ultimately, help grow revenues to cover the costs?

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    Exactly. When you are starting a weaker player, a team will exploit it. Pretty soon other guys are getting out of position slightly to try and help which opens up more holes and it snowballs.
    Marcel Young is an Import player, so if players like this exist on that side of the ratio, will allowing more Internationals fix this? I doubt it, its a salary cap issue IMO
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    Marcel Young is an Import player, so if players like this exist on that side of the ratio, will allowing more Internationals fix this? I doubt it, its a salary cap issue IMO
    Though I agree generally with what Q is putting down, I was going to say similar. Sometimes that weak link is actually an International. Granted it's more likely to be National, but we've also seen teams exploit poor internationals.

    Reality is that we probably don't know the perfect ratio number that makes the weakest Canadian equal to the weakest American, but I could concede that 7 starters is not likely the perfect number.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Though I agree generally with what Q is putting down, I was going to say similar. Sometimes that weak link is actually an International. Granted it's more likely to be National, but we've also seen teams exploit poor internationals.

    Reality is that we probably don't know the perfect ratio number that makes the weakest Canadian equal to the weakest American, but I could concede that 7 starters is not likely the perfect number.
    I was pro ratio reduction but the more I think about it the more I'm on the side of tying it to expansion. We have survived very well with the ratio we have now for a number of years and no matter how much you reduce that number, we are never going to compete with the NFL, so I say stick with it and take a look at game day roster size instead. This, at least IMO, will do the more to increase the in game play than reducing the number of nationals. Prime example would be when Mercy Maston went down in warm up in 2017, causing a ripple effect on the lineup for the game but if we had already dressed an additional import LB, the drop off wouldn't be as much.

    That coupled with some of these guys getting meaningful game reps, should speed up their development.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth View Post
    This is where I'd like to see the movement too... but it is again a matter of figuring out the balance that is right.

    Growing the roster by an additional 7 spots is about a 15% increase. While I believe that it would allow for more specialists, and more depth in case of injury, it is not likely to lead to more revenues to be able to offset the extra costs. If there is only so much money to go around, do you want to spread it around on more jobs, or do you want to see the guys with the jobs get more pay, and hope that the higher salaries helps attract better talent?

    I could see a move to a 48 man roster, with 46 active players, as something more manageable. You add 1 extra Global player spot, and either one extra import or one extra designated import spot depending on what they decide with the ratio/starters. The CFLPA will support something that creates more jobs, as long as there is a rise in the salary cap so that they're not getting paid by taking money that would have gone to other players - likely about $150k total for those two spots.

    Like with the other discussions, I think it starts with, "What do we want to accomplish and why?". If it's about getting the caliber of play higher, is that to attract more fans, or just to make the game better for the existing fans? If something comes with costs (more money for salaries or potential impact on Canadian development system) are the benefits gained enough to justify those costs? Will those benefits, ultimately, help grow revenues to cover the costs?
    I could never see the logic in not allowing all of your roster players the ability to play which is the case now I believe. You are paying everybody on the active roster to play why not have all of them available. Not critiquing your post at all GWN it just reminded me of a pet peeve I have with the current roster rules in the CFL.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    Marcel Young is an Import player, so if players like this exist on that side of the ratio, will allowing more Internationals fix this? I doubt it, its a salary cap issue IMO
    It's completely different for Imports. There are hundreds of Americans just sitting around looking for work. You can go find these guys relatively easy. If one doesn't work, cut him and go sign another. That isn't the case with a Canadian and you know that is true.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    It's completely different for Imports. There are hundreds of Americans just sitting around looking for work. You can go find these guys relatively easy. If one doesn't work, cut him and go sign another. That isn't the case with a Canadian and you know that is true.
    Not as many sitting around for sure but is a Behar/ Adjei better than someone you grab off of the street mid season? I would suggest yes. Same thing can be applied on the Oline, would sliding Asare, whos been with us for a few years, be better than grabbing someone off the street and throwing them in.

    I still think the solution is expanding the rosters to allow for more depth, both import and non-import.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    In your opinion based on what you saw of them as players. Do you think Woodman or King have a job in the CFL if they weren't Canadian.
    That’s not a binary question. There are multiple other factors to consider.

    Yes, they are both Canadian. However, they both highlight a similar question. (Read thru to the end ) After that, the similarities end, in my opinion.

    Woodman:
    He’s a baby. Two years in, I think. Not that big in real life (his player info says 6’1 and 195, but he absolutely doesn’t look it out & about). So much yet to learn.
    The word about Bene is that he prefers vets because he doesn’t like teaching younger/newer players. Not sure how that translates to positional coaches or vets. Basically, I think Hoover & Woodman looked bad out there several times, but I don’t know that they were given all the tools they need(ed) to succeed & I think Bene’s D made a lot of good players look not that great.
    This will be the key year for Woodman with a change of scenery & Devone & Ryan Phillips to learn from.

    Neil King:
    Isn’t he smart & a good teammate, but a step (or few) too slow?

    The similar question(s):
    At what point do you say enough is enough, the return on investment isn’t adequate?
    At what point do you give up or move on?

    Yes, Canadian players get more chances because of their citizenship, but the answers to these questions will be different depending on which coaches, GMs & personnel guys you talk to, based on their own experiences & which qualities they value more &/or feel the team needs.

    Therefore, I don’t think your question can be answered with a simple yes or no.
    Last edited by Smartie123; 03-21-2019 at 12:25 PM. Reason: So. Many. Typos.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation


    "No dress rehearsal, this is our life" - Gord Downie

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    An addendum to my last post...

    Similar questions can be asked about international players. Marcel is a good example.

    People remember his mistakes, but nobody talks about how, earlier in his career, he was sooo fast, or about how he compensated for Pat Watkins loss of a step (or few) the last year they were both in Edmonton (which was part of the problem). The knee & hamstring injuries slowed him (Marcel) down & made it look even worse for him out there, especially last year. However, football smarts & great teammate.

    Where do you draw the line?

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie123 View Post
    An addendum to my last post...

    Similar questions can be asked about international players. Marcel is a good example.

    People remember his mistakes, but nobody talks about how, earlier in his career, he was sooo fast, or about how he compensated for Pat Watkins loss of a step (or few) the last year they were both in Edmonton (which was part of the problem). The knee & hamstring injuries slowed him (Marcel) down & made it look even worse for him out there, especially last year. However, football smarts & great teammate.

    Where do you draw the line?
    I remember reading that Young had great football smarts. Hopefully he finds a coaching spot somewhere and continues in the game.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by turftoe27 View Post
    I remember reading that Young had great football smarts. Hopefully he finds a coaching spot somewhere and continues in the game.
    Smartie's absolutely right about Marcell in terms of how he's viewed by football guys. There are reasons why he got a 3-year contract extension in Edmonton, why Ed brought him to BC, and why Jones brought him to Sask last year after BC released him. Intangibles and ability to work with teammates became a calling card as he lost a step.

    Just as the ratio is important in giving Canadian players a chance to develop and come into their own, the cap on the football ops and the number of coaches has the effect of limiting opportunities for young coaches and guys transitioning from playing. While they are "cheaper" under the cap, that you can now only have so many coaches will hurt guys that would otherwise get brought in to assist and learn.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoagogo View Post

    Solid interview by Kinger.

    I know that Ryan's a guy that speaks from the heart, but his prep for this was outstanding. Being able to stay on message, and to articulate the party line and talking points without going too far, and without resorting to no comments was very well done. A pro on the field and a pro off the field.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation


    "No dress rehearsal, this is our life" - Gord Downie

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation




    Hopefully there is some substance to today's presser.
    "No dress rehearsal, this is our life" - Gord Downie

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie123 View Post
    Yes, Canadian players get more chances because of their citizenship, but the answers to these questions will be different depending on which coaches, GMs & personnel guys you talk to, based on their own experiences & which qualities they value more &/or feel the team needs.

    Therefore, I don’t think your question can be answered with a simple yes or no.
    The way the roster numbers and ratios are structured provide the Canadians with far greater opportunity to develop and far more development time. A NAT doesn't necessarily even have to develop into a starter. They can forge long careers on special teams units while occasionally pinch-hitting on O or D in short term relief. The INT from down south isn't afforded that. Up to 16 of 20 INTs can be starters leaving only 4 backups of which often 1 is a return specialist and another could be a kicker on some rosters. The rest of the INT backups are sitting on the PR. Quite often they go directly from PR to starter without the luxury of spending 2, 3 or 4 years or maybe even a long career on special teams while occasionally getting reps. With the exception of perhaps QB if you are an INT and aren't ready to step in and be a reliable starter or be damned close to it by the end of your second year you are likely in possession of a shiny new apple and one-way roadmap back to the US.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation













    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Hugoagogo; 04-17-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Will be interested to see if more players follow suit.

    Financial need is something that the league, I believe, has been relying on to create division and urgency on the CFLPA membership side. If it starts to be portrayed more as a stick than a carrot, it could have the opposite effect, and solidify some action. The reality is, players aren't paid more than a per-diem for training camp anyways, and for most, it's not the favorite time of the year.

    I've spoken with one CFL QB this past week that said if training camps are shortened in any way, it will be very unlikely that the product on the field will resemble professional football in the pre-season games.

    There are only a handful of teams that have relative continuity in some areas (Hamilton offensively and Winnipeg offensively come to mind... but even there, they are changing out a few OL starters), and virtually everywhere else, there are new players and/or new coaches and systems to install.

    Neither side wins with a work stoppage, but it may start to be a case of which one is going to lose more (short-term and long-term) if that starts to become a reality that they're facing.

    There is still plenty of time to get a deal done, but I believe that the resolve in the CFLPA is going to end up being greater than what the CFL is counting on or has faced historically.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Does not look positive...
    In Rod we trust

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Confirmation


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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Good for them. Every time it seems the league uses stall tactics to create urgency/division within the CFLPA. Would be interesting to see them actually stick together this time.

    As for the comment above that shortened training camp leading to nothing resembling pro-ball in pre-season, the CFL does that themselves sometimes with either officiating or decisions to prolong rather than shorten game play so I doubt they are concerned.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Good for them. Every time it seems the league uses stall tactics to create urgency/division within the CFLPA. Would be interesting to see them actually stick together this time.

    As for the comment above that shortened training camp leading to nothing resembling pro-ball in pre-season, the CFL does that themselves sometimes with either officiating or decisions to prolong rather than shorten game play so I doubt they are concerned.
    I don't know that they could shorten up camp much more than it is. BC and Edmonton play the league's 1st ex-game 1 week into camp and the final game goes 6 nights before the season opener. The full ex-game schedule is done in only 14 days and that's with the quirkieness of a 9 team league forcing the 1st game to happen 4 days before anybody else plays. My concern isn't how a shorter camp affects preseason games because I have no interest in watching them. My concern is that a shortened training camp will lead to a longer and sloppier stretch of early regular season games than we usually endure.

    If something happens to delay the start of training camp I think the league will leverage the fudge factor that is the 3 bye weeks. They might shorten TC by a couple days at most. Otherwise they will rejig the regular season schedule and condense it. If the league is at all thinking proactively they will already have 3 or 4 plan B schedules in their back pocket to cover having to start anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks later than the current one.
    Last edited by Hammer24; 04-18-2019 at 02:26 PM.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer24 View Post
    I don't know that they could shorten up camp much more than it is. BC and Edmonton play the league's 1st ex-game 1 week into camp and the final game goes 6 nights before the season opener. The full ex-game schedule is done in only 14 days and that's with the quirkieness of a 9 team league forcing the 1st game to happen 4 days before anybody else plays. My concern isn't how a shorter camp affects preseason games because I have no interest in watching them. My concern is that a shortened training camp will lead to a longer and sloppier stretch of early regular season games than we usually endure.

    If something happens to delay the start of training camp I think the league will leverage the fudge factor that is the 3 bye weeks. They might shrten TC by a couple days at most. Otherwise they will rejig the regular season schedule and condense it. If the league is at all thinking proactively they will already have 3 or 4 plan B schedules in their back pocket to cover having to anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks later than the current one.
    I think your think your theory of a shortened training camp is the best fit. I'm sure that if they had a balanced schedule they could consider one preseason game per team not two, but you can't make that work with nine clubs.
    Sounds the the union has asked all players not to make any travel arrangements to fly into town(s) prior to camp. If this thing drags on, even if it gets resolved at the deadline, it could really create havoc trying to get everyone on flights and into camp on time.


    Last edited by Hugoagogo; 04-18-2019 at 01:02 PM.
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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer24 View Post
    I don't know that they could shorten up camp much more than it is. BC and Edmonton play the league's 1st ex-game 1 week into camp and the final game goes 6 nights before the season opener. The full ex-game schedule is done in only 14 days and that's with the quirkieness of a 9 team league forcing the 1st game to happen 4 days before anybody else plays. My concern isn't how a shorter camp affects preseason games because I have no interest in watching them. My concern is that a shortened training camp will lead to a longer and sloppier stretch of early regular season games than we usually endure.

    If something happens to delay the start of training camp I think the league will leverage the fudge factor that is the 3 bye weeks. They might shrten TC by a couple days at most. Otherwise they will rejig the regular season schedule and condense it. If the league is at all thinking proactively they will already have 3 or 4 plan B schedules in their back pocket to cover having to anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks later than the current one.
    Would be interesting to see whether that's something that they could even do, given that it's been sold as a "player safety" initiative. Can they make changes to this without the agreement of the CFLPA?

    The concept of condensing the season or changing the schedule has to be somewhat daunting, particularly for multi-use facilities like BC Place as well as TV broadcast schedules planned well in advance, and then you've also got an anchor date at the end of the year with the Grey Cup.

    While the players might be looking at delaying a few paycheques if there is any form of delay of the regular season, the concept of cancelling preseason games or rejigging the schedule could come with some significant impacts for the league. If things get delayed to the point where regular season games are cancelled, I'm sure that losing a few cheques would be felt by the players - 2 game would be just over 10% of their salary for the season... but compared to the impact on the league's clubs - having to reimburse tickets for regular season (and pre-season?) games, and losing out on broadcast revenues, etc. It certainly seems to be a point where the CFLPA has a little more leverage on this front. The biggest interim leverage would be having to lessen the product and to have to reimburse pre-season ticket costs (for season ticket holders) when they are only savings on training camp per diems as salaries don't start rolling yet.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoagogo View Post
    I think your think your theory of a shortened training camp is the best fit. I'm sure that if they had a balanced schedule they could consider one preseason game per team not two, but you can't make that work with nine clubs.
    Sounds the the union has asked all players not to make any travel arrangements to fly into town(s) prior to camp. If this thing drags on, even if it gets resolved at the deadline, it could really create havoc trying to get everyone on flights and into camp on time.

    I don't think it will be a case of being a little bit pregnant. I believe there will be either no disruption to TC or major disruption; no in between. My line of thinking is that if they are getting down to the short strokes on a new deal as the old one expires they will agree to keep negotiating into training camp as they did back in 2014. However if they remain miles apart going into the final few days it's entirely possible one side or the other could walk away from the table. If that happens and players no-show at camp it seems to me the situation wouldn't be resolved without several days being lost. Interesting all the talk is about potential strike with little consideration to the other possibility being a lockout by owners. I believe if the players did choose to no-show for camp there is a very real possibility owners would say "OK if you want it that way we're locking you out".

    Over in the NHL the first labour stoppage came in the form of a players' strike near the end of the 1992 season. It ended fairly quickly but still cost them several games. The 3 stoppages since then have all been lockouts by ownership with losses of nearly half a season in 2 instances and the full season including Stanley Cup in 2004-05.
    MLB has gone through 8 labour disputes. The 5 were strikes. 3 of the 5 combined for a loss of 1747 games as well as the 1994 playoffs and World Series. The 3 lockouts resulted in no game losses.
    NFL has gone through a few too. 1982 cost them 7 of 16 games. 1987 strike cost them the first game before they brought in replacement players/scabs for the next 3 weeks. The union caved after that.
    NBA has gone through 4 major disputes. In all 4 cases the players were locked out. In 2011 owners locked the players out on July 1 which was when the old CBA expired.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth View Post
    Would be interesting to see whether that's something that they could even do, given that it's been sold as a "player safety" initiative. Can they make changes to this without the agreement of the CFLPA?

    The concept of condensing the season or changing the schedule has to be somewhat daunting, particularly for multi-use facilities like BC Place as well as TV broadcast schedules planned well in advance, and then you've also got an anchor date at the end of the year with the Grey Cup.

    While the players might be looking at delaying a few paycheques if there is any form of delay of the regular season, the concept of cancelling preseason games or rejigging the schedule could come with some significant impacts for the league. If things get delayed to the point where regular season games are cancelled, I'm sure that losing a few cheques would be felt by the players - 2 game would be just over 10% of their salary for the season... but compared to the impact on the league's clubs - having to reimburse tickets for regular season (and pre-season?) games, and losing out on broadcast revenues, etc. It certainly seems to be a point where the CFLPA has a little more leverage on this front. The biggest interim leverage would be having to lessen the product and to have to reimburse pre-season ticket costs (for season ticket holders) when they are only savings on training camp per diems as salaries don't start rolling yet.
    I was one of the 3 lucky Lions ST holders to win our tickets this year. It would be my luck to get reimbursed what I paid.

    Rejigging the schedule would not be easy but that's why they have computer systems. In the case of the Lions they do share with the Whitecaps and both have schedules that amount to home games every second week or thereabouts. But they can also turn the stadium over from one sport to the next in short order. I think it used to be around 3 days but they have reduced that significantly. What it could mean is worst case they wind up with a game on say a Monday or Thursday instead of Saturday if they have to double up on a weekend that has the Caps at home.

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer24 View Post
    I was one of the 3 lucky Lions ST holders to win our tickets this year. It would be my luck to get reimbursed what I paid.

    Rejigging the schedule would not be easy but that's why they have computer systems. In the case of the Lions they do share with the Whitecaps and both have schedules that amount to home games every second week or thereabouts. But they can also turn the stadium over from one sport to the next in short order. I think it used to be around 3 days but they have reduced that significantly. What it could mean is worst case they wind up with a game on say a Monday or Thursday instead of Saturday if they have to double up on a weekend that has the Caps at home.
    I would think the Argos might have a big issues as well. They have needed gaps in the turf use between TFC and the Argos to keep it healthy. Perhaps the new hybrid stuff they are installing might shorten the window between games.
    "No dress rehearsal, this is our life" - Gord Downie

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    Re: CFL CBA Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer24 View Post
    I was one of the 3 lucky Lions ST holders to win our tickets this year. It would be my luck to get reimbursed what I paid.

    Rejigging the schedule would not be easy but that's why they have computer systems. In the case of the Lions they do share with the Whitecaps and both have schedules that amount to home games every second week or thereabouts. But they can also turn the stadium over from one sport to the next in short order. I think it used to be around 3 days but they have reduced that significantly. What it could mean is worst case they wind up with a game on say a Monday or Thursday instead of Saturday if they have to double up on a weekend that has the Caps at home.
    It's older information to be sure, but I recall that at one time, BC Place was used over 200 days a year between trade shows, concerts, etc. Perhaps that has changed significantly, but I think it was part of the rationale applied with funding the renovation.

    You could be right that it's kind of a no disruption or big disruption situation. I would predict that the CFLPA will hold very firm on not reporting for camp unless it's down to very minute differences... as much for demonstrating that they're breaking with what are perceived to be cave-ins of the past as for the functional purpose. Once the players arrive, if they're not reporting or walk out subsequently, they would presumably be on their own for accommodations, etc... and again, these are guys that, in many cases, will not have had a cheque since last November.

    I don't see a lock-out being likely, in that the economics are just that much different than in other pro sports, with the majority of teams operating closer to break-even, and the payroll costs being somewhere south of 30% of total revenues instead of up near 50%. As long as the CFLPA is willing to own not reporting, the CFL would have no incentive to lock them out, as the side being perceived to own the disruption will likely incur more lost public support. If the players were paid their salary from day one of training camp, perhaps that would change a bit.

    I am still of the opinion that there is way too much to lose for both sides to not have a deal get done, but I can understand that with this CBA being foundational for future ones, and likely being a 5-year term as well, that a bad deal for either side could be costly in its own right.

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