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Thread: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by T-BONE View Post
    There was a kickoff after the field goal. All scoring plays under 3 minutes require a kickoff.
    That being said I agree it was the right call and it did wind up giving them a chance to tie the game and get it to OT they just couldn't capitalize.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by T-BONE View Post
    There was a kickoff after the field goal. All scoring plays under 3 minutes require a kickoff.
    You are right. I forgot it changed for the last 3 mins. My mistake. Still doesn't change that while unconventional, it ended up being the right call. It worked out exactly how they planned.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I am actually surprised at the black lash about what Maas did. They needed 2 scores. Was it a bit unorthodox to kick the field goal then, sure but they were running out of time and given how much time their offense was taking to do anything, there was a good chance they would have burned off at close to a minute to score a TD. Then you'd have to kick off, most likely go for the short kick which rarely work. So chances are the Bombers are getting the ball near mid field. Even if your defense does a 2 and out, they are punting and pinning you deep.

    By doing it the way he did. You got your 3. The Bombers have to take the ball rather than a kick off so you save time in that. Then you hope your defense can do a 2 and out. You have a time out which you use to stop the clock. If they do a 2 and out, even with a bomb of a punt, you are getting decent field position. If you get any kind of return, you get the ball back at mid field with over a minute left. Which is exactly what happened.

    It was the right call.
    Maas did something like this in the game in BC last year. I agree completely. It's unconventional, but a lot of convention in football isn't necessarily the best strategy. The worst possible outcome for the two score scenario is for the first score to take too long. You've got to give enough time for the second score. As Q says, you have to avoid the onside kick at all costs. It's not in the end zone by 2 minutes...kick the FG and give your defense time to hold the opposition.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Always nice to see the comments and opinions on here after a game and not much I can say will be any different from what has been said already, but one play in the first half kinda bugged me. Can't recall if it was in the first or second quarter .

    Harris dropped back to pass on 2nd down and the BB came on a safety blitz. Harris got the ball away and got hit by Hecht well after he released the ball. A clean hit , not low or high but definitely well after the release. Harris looks at the ref , but no call. We punted. Sewell got called for a shot like this in one of the first two games and it was nowhere as late as this one. Just wondering if I saw this play thru green and gold glasses or if we got shafted again.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by PDO View Post
    The ST penalties are the infuriating ones to me.

    On penalties, I thought the one on Usher was pretty soft and when Harris was fully bent over and sacked by his head it sure seemed like a penalty last week but who knows?

    They left two points on the table but nobody wins the Grey Cup in June. They played a tough game in a tough stadium against a team coming off a bye on a short week (Yes, it was one day, why the **** are they playing this game on Thursday night football?) and did enough to win, didn't get some bounces and make a couple clutch catches.

    JM made the right call on kicking the FG.

    The only JM call I hated (that was also a catch and a fumble on Collins by CFL rules) was the 10 yard FG. The way their D was playing you go for that there and your worst case scenario should be a safety.

    I really thought Smith would be a lot more polished.
    I think we know, by now, that we're not going to get the benefit of the doubt that a veteran, disciplined team is going to get. I'm not talking outright bias or conspiracy, I'm talking tiebreakers on the borderline calls that could go either way. Veteran players tend to earn some grace from the officials, and I don't believe we have more than a few that would fall into that category right now. We just have to do that much better of a job of putting the officials in a position to be able to throw the flag.

    For the frustration I had with Usher and Hunter on a few, I was impressed with what I saw from Moore, Sewell, Diggs, Walker and Boateng in playing with more controlled restraint.

    As for the Maas call - I agree that coaches make calls based on gut feel and momentum. While I can accept that it may not have been the right call in terms of playing the odds (Derek Taylor made some solid points on Twitter), the team was ultimately put in a position to win... the first time through their own play, and the second time through the luck around the fumble (which was forced still). I don't see any reason why it should be an ongoing issue for Maas to have to address.

    I think there is a way to argue that we deserved a better fate and we did more harm to ourselves through mistakes and penalties than the Bombers did for much of the game. I recognize that the other side of the same coin is that, when you're hurting yourself, you possibly deserve the fate you get. I thought we carried the balance of play on both offence and defence, but it was the Bombers that had guys step up (Whitehead - who I swapped out for Chris Mathews in FF just before the game) with big plays at the right time. Credit to the Bombers for some of the 2nd down stops that held us to FGs, but generally when we have that much dominance of time of possession and yardage, as well as win the turnover battle, things are going to go our way. Yes, points are all that matters, but it's by doing the right things that the points typically come, and last night just wasn't to be, despite the chances at the end. I would think that even the most pessimistic had to have some decent faith that we'd score after the last Harris fumble left us with the ball on their half of the field and a decent amount of time.

    Unlike some, I thought the O-line did a very good job. Yes, there was more pressure than we'd seen through the first two weeks, but that is to be expected up against a front-7 that has to be right up there with us as tops in the league (and we've done it without three presumed starters). Jeffcoat beat Kelly underneath twice (one wiped out due to penalty), and Jefferson had a good push on him late, but didn't get to Harris on the play. Only 1 sack allowed, more pressure on Harris for sure, but I think he was hit no more than 5 times, and I thought our run game was reasonably effective for much of the night, even when playing from behind.

    I concur with some that bemoaned the lack of the big play, and working to magnify that was our lower efficiency on converting second downs. We've seen in weeks one and two that Collins and Ellingson are capable of stretching the field, but with the Bombers scheming hard to take that away, it changed how we attacked them, and I think that's a little unusual for a Maas offence that normally likes to dictate to the defence. Credit to the BB for that.

    At the end of the day, to borrow the catch phrase of our coach, I think the players will be walking away from this with some lessons - that mistakes and penalties will cost them games if they continue, even though they got away with them the first two weeks AND that if we cut down on the mistakes and penalties, and execute what we're capable of, we're going to likely be able to play with anyone in this league. I don't think that there is anyone on the Esks roster that is thinking, "Man, we took a whoopin' from those guys, and they beat us by playing a better game", but rather, "If we don't hurt ourselves as often and as badly as we did, we win that game.".

    Bye week hopefully comes at a good time to re-energize and re-focus... and I think that most of us would have fairly happily accepted a 2-1 start with BC, Mtl and Tor up next for us on the schedule. Worth noting that BC will be coming off a short week and traveling back from Toronto, while we'll be coming off a bye and well rested. Whatever we had to take from the schedule maker in the pre-season, we're getting a pretty decent draw through this section.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by turftoe27 View Post
    Always nice to see the comments and opinions on here after a game and not much I can say will be any different from what has been said already, but one play in the first half kinda bugged me. Can't recall if it was in the first or second quarter .

    Harris dropped back to pass on 2nd down and the BB came on a safety blitz. Harris got the ball away and got hit by Hecht well after he released the ball. A clean hit , not low or high but definitely well after the release. Harris looks at the ref , but no call. We punted. Sewell got called for a shot like this in one of the first two games and it was nowhere as late as this one. Just wondering if I saw this play thru green and gold glasses or if we got shafted again.
    This is sort of what I meant in my post above. Hecht is a long-term veteran player that's tended to be fairly clean and disciplined. So is Sewell, and I think he'd normally get the respect/grace too, but his came in a game where we were taking all sorts of other liberties. I agree that it was a borderline play - not dirty, but a half-step late, and would have likely been a bit of a weak flag to throw, but wouldn't likely have been overturned on replay if it had been called. It is the inconsistency, not only from one game/crew to the next, but even within game, that makes it tough to handle. That said, I didn't think that the refs influenced the over all result of the game in this one.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    It is not so much what the refs called against the Eskimos that was the problem, it is that the Blue Bombers didn't get called for what they do. On Winnipeg's last touchdown there are two people that should have been called for holding, with the first hold right after the catch is made. It is the same hold that a week earlier Kenny Stafford got called for on a CJ Gable run that saw yards come back. Harris gets hit late, no call. Bombers defence goes offside, no call. Jackson gets tackled after he is out of bounds, no call.

    There seems to be two sets of rules because the league doesn't like Jason Maas.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks1975 View Post
    It is not so much what the refs called against the Eskimos that was the problem, it is that the Blue Bombers didn't get called for what they do. On Winnipeg's last touchdown there are two people that should have been called for holding, with the first hold right after the catch is made. It is the same hold that a week earlier Kenny Stafford got called for on a CJ Gable run that saw yards come back. Harris gets hit late, no call. Bombers defence goes offside, no call. Jackson gets tackled after he is out of bounds, no call.

    There seems to be two sets of rules because the league doesn't like Jason Maas.
    Was awfully strange Winnipeg didn't start taking penalties until the game was "out of reach."
    "This year, we did what we were supposed to do. We fought as a team. We fought as a team. And the fact is, we gotta go back and go to work, to make sure we finish this next time. That's all we gotta do. This right here makes us stronger. Let's understand who we are as a team. Let's understand this right here makes us stronger." - Ray Lewis, January, 2012.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Yup, let's start to even it up when the Bombers have a big lead. They gave them that last TD with two glaring holds to let Whitehead get outside.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Incidentally, at halftime in today's game just now, Matt Dunigan and Milt Stegall agreed with Maas' call to kick the FG near the end, to avoid the onside kick. Burris disagreed, saying it would frustrate him as a QB to be taken off the field.

    I've been quite surprised by Burris on the panel, BTW. He's not bad.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Thats just Burris' me me me attitude coming through

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks1975 View Post
    Yup, let's start to even it up when the Bombers have a big lead. They gave them that last TD with two glaring holds to let Whitehead get outside.
    I noticed that as well. Inconsistent calls are bad for the league, as the borderline fans will get tired of it quickly

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I am actually surprised at the black lash about what Maas did. They needed 2 scores. Was it a bit unorthodox to kick the field goal then, sure but they were running out of time and given how much time their offense was taking to do anything, there was a good chance they would have burned off at close to a minute to score a TD. Then you'd have to kick off, most likely go for the short kick which rarely work. So chances are the Bombers are getting the ball near mid field. Even if your defense does a 2 and out, they are punting and pinning you deep.

    By doing it the way he did. You got your 3. The Bombers have to take the ball rather than a kick off so you save time in that. Then you hope your defense can do a 2 and out. You have a time out which you use to stop the clock. If they do a 2 and out, even with a bomb of a punt, you are getting decent field position. If you get any kind of return, you get the ball back at mid field with over a minute left. Which is exactly what happened.

    It was the right call.
    I dont get it either but it seems like any time someone does something unconventional, they get vilified for it.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    I noticed that as well. Inconsistent calls are bad for the league, as the borderline fans will get tired of it quickly
    .
    it looks really bad imo. It can come off as outcomes of games being controlled. it just amazes me at how crappy the officials are game in and game out. One thing is a penalty for one team and then the exact same thing for another team isnt. Sometimes even for the two teams playing each other. I still feel the officiating should the be number 1 issue the commish should be fixing not the CFL 2.0 stuff. Donning my tin foil helmet - with the lack of urgency in improving the officiating or even really acknowledging an issue leads me to believe the CFL overlords want it that way to control the games ( no lead is safe) and make for better tv.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks4ever View Post
    it looks really bad imo. It can come off as outcomes of games being controlled. it just amazes me at how crappy the officials are game in and game out. One thing is a penalty for one team and then the exact same thing for another team isnt. Sometimes even for the two teams playing each other. I still feel the officiating should the be number 1 issue the commish should be fixing not the CFL 2.0 stuff. Donning my tin foil helmet - with the lack of urgency in improving the officiating or even really acknowledging an issue leads me to believe the CFL overlords want it that way to control the games ( no lead is safe) and make for better tv.
    To me, the question is how do they improve it? Especially short-term. The NFL, with it's billions of dollars hasn't figured out how to not have it rear its head as one of their biggest issues either.

    The CFL is working to groom new officials, we see that in pre-season. They are sending officials to work NFL pre-season games as well if I'm not mistaken. Financially, the CFL cannot afford to make their CFL officials full-time paid employees, so this will continue to be something they do in addition to how they earn their living.

    I don't believe the officiating is any worse today than it was in the past, but the mistakes get more exposed by technology, slo-motion replays from multiple angles on 60 inch HD TVs, and video review to challenge calls. Even the 'best we've got' don't seem to call it to the satisfaction of many in the video review, where they have the benefit of all that tech, a full understanding of how to apply the rules - and that isn't, imo, evidence of incompetence, but rather, just how hard it is.

    In 25% of calls, a fan from either team is going to disagree with each other, seeing the exact same evidence, just through their own lens... especially when it comes to holding, pass interference, roughing, etc where there is a level of subjectivity.

    Not a shot at you, but the tin-foil hat conspiracy theories don't do anything to help the perception. In some posts we have the theory that they even up the penalties only when they can't help the Esks win, and in others, it's about using penalties to keep the games close. I think both narratives give the officials far more credit for bring able to play out an agenda while keeping up with a full speed game and trying to stay on top of things.

    I do, ultimately, agree it needs to be an area they improve and continue to work at, and I do agree that it affects fan perceptions of credibility, but I would be really interested to get some tangible ideas for steps they can take.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth View Post
    To me, the question is how do they improve it? Especially short-term. The NFL, with it's billions of dollars hasn't figured out how to not have it rear its head as one of their biggest issues either.

    The CFL is working to groom new officials, we see that in pre-season. They are sending officials to work NFL pre-season games as well if I'm not mistaken. Financially, the CFL cannot afford to make their CFL officials full-time paid employees, so this will continue to be something they do in addition to how they earn their living.

    I don't believe the officiating is any worse today than it was in the past, but the mistakes get more exposed by technology, slo-motion replays from multiple angles on 60 inch HD TVs, and video review to challenge calls. Even the 'best we've got' don't seem to call it to the satisfaction of many in the video review, where they have the benefit of all that tech, a full understanding of how to apply the rules - and that isn't, imo, evidence of incompetence, but rather, just how hard it is.

    In 25% of calls, a fan from either team is going to disagree with each other, seeing the exact same evidence, just through their own lens... especially when it comes to holding, pass interference, roughing, etc where there is a level of subjectivity.

    Not a shot at you, but the tin-foil hat conspiracy theories don't do anything to help the perception. In some posts we have the theory that they even up the penalties only when they can't help the Esks win, and in others, it's about using penalties to keep the games close. I think both narratives give the officials far more credit for bring able to play out an agenda while keeping up with a full speed game and trying to stay on top of things.

    I do, ultimately, agree it needs to be an area they improve and continue to work at, and I do agree that it affects fan perceptions of credibility, but I would be really interested to get some tangible ideas for steps they can take.
    Winnipeg literally had 20 yards of penalties with 7 minutes to go while the Esks had been called for all kinds of borderline calls. It all gets "evened up" on one drive so it doesn't look that bad but....

    Heck, even on one of their few penalties early on in the game, Matthews was inexplicably ruled as a catch when it was clearly either incomplete or a catch and a fumble which meant the Esks had to accept it instead of decline it and the next play Usher gets called for a very weak RTP.

    In fairness, Collins also clearly fumbled the ball a bit later on and it was called a catch.
    "This year, we did what we were supposed to do. We fought as a team. We fought as a team. And the fact is, we gotta go back and go to work, to make sure we finish this next time. That's all we gotta do. This right here makes us stronger. Let's understand who we are as a team. Let's understand this right here makes us stronger." - Ray Lewis, January, 2012.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    As it has always been....the penalties will straighten themselves out with time. After every game you can go on the opposing teams board and often you will see their fans rail against the refs and the missed calls. The refs in the CFL today certainly aren't where we as fans or the league want them to be...but go throw in a game from 2000 and you will see the calling of games has actually greatly improved in the past 20 years.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Kelly is way too slow and was consistently being beat all night. Once again we need a new RT if Bond can do it fine if Saxeliid I would be fine with him as well.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    I find that CFL refs seem to officiate by reputation. Esks under Maas have a reputation as a dirty team, thus the flags come out in situations where it might not for other teams. Winnipeg on the other hand, doesn't have that reputation at all. So as a result, you don't see the flags come out. A few years ago, the Stamps O line had a rep for being the best in the league, thus there was rarely (if ever) a holding call against them. IMO they were doing as much holding as any other O line, but that rep of being good seemed to override that.

    I've always thought that it would be a really interesting experiment in human bias to take professional officials, show them 200 plays on a screen and have them log any infractions where they would have called a penalty. Then 2 weeks later show them the same 200 plays, but using computers, change the jersey colours, and see if that affects the results. I'm willing to bet that it would.
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by TeqEEla View Post
    I find that CFL refs seem to officiate by reputation. Esks under Maas have a reputation as a dirty team, thus the flags come out in situations where it might not for other teams. Winnipeg on the other hand, doesn't have that reputation at all. So as a result, you don't see the flags come out. A few years ago, the Stamps O line had a rep for being the best in the league, thus there was rarely (if ever) a holding call against them. IMO they were doing as much holding as any other O line, but that rep of being good seemed to override that.

    I've always thought that it would be a really interesting experiment in human bias to take professional officials, show them 200 plays on a screen and have them log any infractions where they would have called a penalty. Then 2 weeks later show them the same 200 plays, but using computers, change the jersey colours, and see if that affects the results. I'm willing to bet that it would.
    very interesting premise, would love to see that
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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Quote Originally Posted by TeqEEla View Post
    I find that CFL refs seem to officiate by reputation. Esks under Maas have a reputation as a dirty team, thus the flags come out in situations where it might not for other teams. Winnipeg on the other hand, doesn't have that reputation at all. So as a result, you don't see the flags come out. A few years ago, the Stamps O line had a rep for being the best in the league, thus there was rarely (if ever) a holding call against them. IMO they were doing as much holding as any other O line, but that rep of being good seemed to override that.

    I've always thought that it would be a really interesting experiment in human bias to take professional officials, show them 200 plays on a screen and have them log any infractions where they would have called a penalty. Then 2 weeks later show them the same 200 plays, but using computers, change the jersey colours, and see if that affects the results. I'm willing to bet that it would.
    Possibly, but I think the biggest difference isn't what they'd see on a field vs. on video. I think it's almost impossible to be on the field and not get influenced by atmosphere. And by that I don't just mean the crowds. The smack talking on the field, the personal interactions with the players, history with individual players and coaches. When watching on a screen it's less personal and I'd imagine more balanced. Though I guess my theory is proven void based off what we see with video review.

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    Re: GDT: Eskimos/Bombers @ IG field

    Video review turned what was potentially a 10-8 team into a 9-9 team last year.

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