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Thread: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

  1. #181
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by PDO View Post
    97 and 29 also looked gassed.

    Which comes back to playing too many minutes.

    Which comes back to needing to add several more legitimate players to the F corps.
    The Oilers have played 9 games total. They haven't had a ridiculous amount of road games or travel. Not a single back to back yet. And you think these guys are gassed already? If that is the case and these guys can't get passed 10 games without being tired, then the Oilers are screwed.

    Here is a question. Anytime I see a someone mention icetime for a forward and if they get up over 21 mins, immediately people go "Ohhh, they are playing them too much and they will be tired." Why doesn't that EVER apply to a dman? I took a look at the stats and I only looked at the first page so the top 50. Leon is 20th in icetime, McDavid is 40th. The only other forward is Zibanejad at 39. The #1 in icetime is Burns at 26:37. So why is it OK for Dmen to play that much but not a forward?

    Do I think the Oiler bottom 6 need to pick it up? 100% they do. But if I was the coach and I had McDavid, the best player in the world and Leon who looks like a top 10 player in the world, I sure as hell would not be sitting those guys in favor of my 4th line. Ideally, as they move forward, I hope they can trim down on their mins a little bit but if you are on a 4th line, you are on a 4th line for a reason.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    The Oilers have played 9 games total. They haven't had a ridiculous amount of road games or travel. Not a single back to back yet. And you think these guys are gassed already? If that is the case and these guys can't get passed 10 games without being tired, then the Oilers are screwed.

    Here is a question. Anytime I see a someone mention icetime for a forward and if they get up over 21 mins, immediately people go "Ohhh, they are playing them too much and they will be tired." Why doesn't that EVER apply to a dman? I took a look at the stats and I only looked at the first page so the top 50. Leon is 20th in icetime, McDavid is 40th. The only other forward is Zibanejad at 39. The #1 in icetime is Burns at 26:37. So why is it OK for Dmen to play that much but not a forward?

    Do I think the Oiler bottom 6 need to pick it up? 100% they do. But if I was the coach and I had McDavid, the best player in the world and Leon who looks like a top 10 player in the world, I sure as hell would not be sitting those guys in favor of my 4th line. Ideally, as they move forward, I hope they can trim down on their mins a little bit but if you are on a 4th line, you are on a 4th line for a reason.
    Please don't take it as a shot as it is meant to be a question, but have you played much hockey? It's much easier to conserve energy within a shift on Defense than it is as a forward, especially a centreman. Generally for Centres it's because of how much more ice they cover. Also, forward are more likely to have to make that late shift push to allow the change to complete Defence can get off first when the puck is sent deep. Once you get past that tipping point within a shift, recovery also takes significantly longer.

    The game, strategies and player fitness are changing that up a little bit to narrow that gap, but it's still there just the same.
    Last edited by bone; Yesterday at 09:02 AM.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Please don't take it as a shot as it is meant to be a question, but have you played much hockey? It's much easier to conserve energy within a shift on Defense than it is as a forward, especially a centreman. Generally for Centres it's because of how much more ice they cover. Also, forward are more likely to have to make that late shift push to allow the change to complete Defence can get off first when the puck is sent deep. Once you get past that tipping point within a shift, recovery also takes significantly longer.

    The game, strategies and player fitness are changing that up a little bit to narrow that gap, but it's still there just the same.
    I played hockey into my mid teens actually and I have followed the game my entire life so I am not an idiot.

    When you have players as good as McDavid and Leon, you need them on the ice as much as you can. In a cap world, where a small segment of players make a massive chunk of your salary cap, you need your top guys to play a lot because the days of having all these high end bottom 6 guys are disappearing. To offset the cost of what the top guys make, you need lots of dirt cheap guys in your bottom 6. Unless you are a high end draft pick on his ELC, if you are a dirty cheap guy, you are making not a lot for a reason. The average shift is what, 45 seconds? So if Leon and McDavid play 3 less shifts, all of a sudden it's OK.
    Last edited by Sectionq; Yesterday at 09:14 AM.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Please don't take it as a shot as it is meant to be a question, but have you played much hockey?
    I was going to ask this exact question. I could probably play twice the minutes on D as I could on forward in my ball and ice hockey days.
    "No one entertains the thought that maybe God does not believe in you." - Bo Burnham

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    The Oilers have played 9 games total. They haven't had a ridiculous amount of road games or travel. Not a single back to back yet. And you think these guys are gassed already? If that is the case and these guys can't get passed 10 games without being tired, then the Oilers are screwed.

    Here is a question. Anytime I see a someone mention icetime for a forward and if they get up over 21 mins, immediately people go "Ohhh, they are playing them too much and they will be tired." Why doesn't that EVER apply to a dman? I took a look at the stats and I only looked at the first page so the top 50. Leon is 20th in icetime, McDavid is 40th. The only other forward is Zibanejad at 39. The #1 in icetime is Burns at 26:37. So why is it OK for Dmen to play that much but not a forward?

    Do I think the Oiler bottom 6 need to pick it up? 100% they do. But if I was the coach and I had McDavid, the best player in the world and Leon who looks like a top 10 player in the world, I sure as hell would not be sitting those guys in favor of my 4th line. Ideally, as they move forward, I hope they can trim down on their mins a little bit but if you are on a 4th line, you are on a 4th line for a reason.
    Seriously? You are comparing McDavid's and Draisaitl's ice time to defencemen as an argument for them not playing too much? You are purposely not comparing apples to apples. Most of your arguments are ridiculous but I think this one takes the cake.

    It's almost as bad as your "why can't Larsson be an offensive defenceman" take.
    "No one entertains the thought that maybe God does not believe in you." - Bo Burnham

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I played hockey into my mid teens actually and I have followed the game my entire life so I am not an idiot.

    When you have players as good as McDavid and Leon, you need them on the ice as much as you can. In a cap world, where a small segment of players make a massive chunk of your salary cap, you need your top guys to play a lot because the days of having all these high end bottom 6 guys are disappearing. To offset the cost of what the top guys make, you need lots of dirt cheap guys in your bottom 6. Unless you are a high end draft pick on his ELC, if you are a dirty cheap guy, you are making not a lot for a reason. The average shift is what, 45 seconds? So if Leon and McDavid play 3 less shifts, all of a sudden it's OK.
    I wasn't calling you an idiot, just asking a question as people who've played the game for a long time are used to the idea that you can get by with less defensemen than forwards. Even at beer league level usually an optimal lineup is only 4 defense, but more often than not teams will want a couple extra forwards beyond two lines. I play both regularly and can tell you, I am much more tired playing even with additional forwards beyond two lines than when I play as one of the four dmen.

    You points are valid, it's just the law of diminishing returns. Pushing your best players is probably the best option, but there does become a tipping point. Looking Sunday as an example, it's probably not even that they played about 25 minutes, but moreso that the game was played with pretty good pace, then Connor and Leon played about five of the final nine minutes of game time including a fast paced 3-on-3 overtime including three and a half minutes of the overtime after already playing over 20 minutes through the game. And you could see they were gassed at that point such that it impacted their ability to score.

    Not saying it's the wrong thing to do, but players will get tired in segments like that and it can impact their performance.

    Another issue with them isn't even how many shifts they take, but that often their shift length is longer than average, and recovery time when you get past the limit on a shift grows by quite a bit. I've often thought they should take shorter shifts, but then they go and score a goal at the end of a 90 second shift and blow my theory out of the water.
    Last edited by bone; Yesterday at 10:20 AM.

  7. #187
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    I wasn't calling you an idiot, just asking a question as people who've played the game for a long time are used to the idea that you can get by with less defensemen than forwards. Even at beer league level usually an optimal lineup is only 4 defense, but more often than not teams will want a couple extra forwards beyond two lines. I play both regularly and can tell you, I am much more tired playing even with additional forwards beyond two lines than when I play as one of the four dmen.

    You points are valid, it's just the law of diminishing returns. Pushing your best players is probably the best option, but there does become a tipping point. Looking Sunday as an example, it's probably not even that they played about 25 minutes, but moreso that the game was played with pretty good pace, then Connor and Leon played about five of the final nine minutes of game time including a fast paced 3-on-3 overtime including three and a half minutes of the overtime after already playing over 20 minutes through the game. And you could see they were gassed at that point such that it impacted their ability to score.

    Not saying it's the wrong thing to do, but players will get tired in segments like that and it can impact their performance.

    Another issue with them isn't even how many shifts they take, but that often their shift length is longer than average, and recovery time when you get past the limit on a shift grows by quite a bit. I've often thought they should take shorter shifts, but then they go and score a goal at the end of a 90 second shift and blow my theory out of the water.
    With the amount of 5 on 5 time they should be getting and them getting most of the time for every PP which I want, I think ideally they should be around 22 mins a night. Last game, Leon played 25:39 and McDavid played 24:58. They had an entire 5 min OT where Leon and McDavid played at least half. So without the OT, they are right in the ice time I think they should. I don't think the second unit PP should get more than 30 seconds and I sure don't want the 4th line getting time in OT when it's 3 on 3.
    Remember winning is not enough according to Len Rhodes, President of a professional sports team.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    It's a good thing they won all those games early, because the Oilers look uuuuugly!

    After that Winnipeg game and now 2 periods against Minny....I can't watch anymore. There's not a player on that team who isn't a goalie who is playing well. Even McDavid and Draisaitl look terrible.

    Can't pass, can't beat anyone, panicky with the puck, can't hit the net. God awful.

    An old, slow, bad Minny team is making the Oilers look like the NHL is too fast for them. That includes 97, 93, 29 and 10. Can't handle the press from slow old guys.

    Not sure what's up. They can't be tired already. Hungover?
    "Of all the so-called virtues, the most over-rated is faith" - Christopher Hitchens

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus View Post
    They are going to regress super hard.
    Ahem.
    "No one entertains the thought that maybe God does not believe in you." - Bo Burnham

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