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Thread: Just Throwing It Out There...

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtuck09 View Post
    I wouldn't be upset if he was canned either.
    I think you will get your wish

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by T-BONE View Post
    If the best defence for a keeping a coach is who would you replace him with, I question how good that coach is.

    There are 3 first year head coaches just this season who have better records than Maas so I donít buy the ďbut who would you replace him withĒ argument.

    I would expect a professional football organization to be capable of finding suitable replacements.
    None of these coaches experienced near the roster turnover that JM did, not to mention the injuries we sustained to key players over the course of the season. Hes coaching a new squad every game.
    The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

    Vince Lombardi

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    I'm still on the Maas train but how we finish out this year will color my opinion for sure. If they stick with him I will in turn support but my allegiance is wavering for sure.
    #PizStrong

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    None of these coaches experienced near the roster turnover that JM did, not to mention the injuries we sustained to key players over the course of the season. Hes coaching a new squad every game.
    Dickinson lost his starting QB on the third play from scrimmage.
    Steinhauer lost his starting QB in the first third of the season, hasn’t missed a beat.
    Khari inherited a team that was the laughing stock of the league prior to his hire, just days before their first game.

    The injury excuse holds no water for me this year. Most of the key injuries were to start the year and they played great to start. Mid season the roster change has been more due to guys returning with the exception of Harris. The Harris injury is huge, but as pointed out, none of the three first year coaches having success right now are using their original starter anymore. In fact, every team ahead of them in the standings has been short their intended starter for as many if not more games than Harris has been out.

    My concern remains that every year with Mass we see a horrible mid-season stretch, and last year that continued until the end of the season. If it continues through the end of the season again. It’s a trend that is worrisome.
    Last edited by bone; 10-08-2019 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Dickinson lost his starting QB on the third play from scrimmage.
    Steinhauer lost his starting QB in the first third of the season, hasn’t missed a beat.
    Khari inherited a team that was the laughing stock of the league prior to his hire, just days before their first game.

    The injury excuse holds no water for me this year. Most of the key injuries were to start the year and they played great to start. Mid season the roster change has been more due to guys returning with the exception of Harris. The Harris injury is huge, but as pointed out, none of the three first year coaches having success right now are using their original starter anymore. In fact, every team ahead of them in the standings has been short their intended starter for as many if not more games than Harris has been out.

    My concern remains that every year with Mass we see a horrible mid-season stretch, and last year that continued until the end of the season. If it continues through the end of the season again. It’s a trend that is worrisome.
    Have the tabbies or Riders lost 2 starting OL? How about 3/4 of the LB corps at some point during the season?
    We started strong because JM put so much emphasis on coming together as a team in training camp. We all read the games, off time etc that were spent together. Then you start loosing guys to injury, one or 2 you can overcome, then it becomes 5 or 8 or 10 and you can't overcome that anymore. Sure some guys come back mid season but to expect instant chemistry is insane, especially when we have had the amount of injury turn over as we have. We have more guys currently (not mentioning those who are back) on 6 game then both the Riders and Ti Cats. JM cannot fix that. To blame him is silly.
    The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

    Vince Lombardi

  6. #36
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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    Have the tabbies or Riders lost 2 starting OL? How about 3/4 of the LB corps at some point during the season?
    We started strong because JM put so much emphasis on coming together as a team in training camp. We all read the games, off time etc that were spent together. Then you start loosing guys to injury, one or 2 you can overcome, then it becomes 5 or 8 or 10 and you can't overcome that anymore. Sure some guys come back mid season but to expect instant chemistry is insane, especially when we have had the amount of injury turn over as we have. We have more guys currently (not mentioning those who are back) on 6 game then both the Riders and Ti Cats. JM cannot fix that. To blame him is silly.
    For the Oline injuries, I haven't detected any issues from them that has led to the current results. Though I haven't checked, I suspect they are still near the top of the list in preventing sacks (checked after posting and still first by a significant margin).

    As for 3/4 of the LB out at once, I'm not following what you are saying. Of the starting LBs last Friday, Dean has played in all 15 games, as has Diggs, and Unamba has played 8 straight since his stint on the 6 game list The backup Rouyer has also dressed all 15 games, and CMT was in for 9 of the games that JSK missed to start the season. The only other one on the injured list right now is Smith, who is a serviceable backup who played in 7 of the games.

    I don't know for sure what the tabbies have missed or the riders, but I don't see the Esks injury situation this year nearly as dire as it had been two years ago or even last year. Particularly as some of the good players who were injured, started the year injured and their replacements have stepped in and played pretty well in their absence.

    Again, Harris is a huge blow. But the job of the coaching staff is to make sure the other guys are ready in case of injury, and if they aren't good enough to push the agenda with the GM to get them what they need. If Edmonton was the only team to have lost its starting QB for significant time this year, I'd give a bit of slack, but the reality is everyone else in the league (except maybe Ottawa) has adapted better when the need arose.
    Last edited by bone; 10-08-2019 at 12:27 PM.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    Have the tabbies or Riders lost 2 starting OL? How about 3/4 of the LB corps at some point during the season?
    We started strong because JM put so much emphasis on coming together as a team in training camp. We all read the games, off time etc that were spent together. Then you start loosing guys to injury, one or 2 you can overcome, then it becomes 5 or 8 or 10 and you can't overcome that anymore. Sure some guys come back mid season but to expect instant chemistry is insane, especially when we have had the amount of injury turn over as we have. We have more guys currently (not mentioning those who are back) on 6 game then both the Riders and Ti Cats. JM cannot fix that. To blame him is silly.
    I wonder how many of the guys on the 6 game are there cause they should be vs being a cap casualty. I would be willing to bet that if Diggs hadn't taken the role over JSK would have been back awhile ago if not for game 1.
    #PizStrong

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    At this point last year, I don't think anyone would have foresaw Khari Jones having the success he's had this year. So we can't continue to look at it this way.

    I've been all in on Maas for most of his time here, but this annual tendancy to go into major slumps around Labour Day is just too much to continue to overlook.

    2019 - 6-3 to start. Now looking down the barrel of a 1-8 or 2-7 finish.
    2018 - 6-3 to start. 3-6 to finish
    .
    2017 - 7-0 to start before reeling off 6 straight losses. Fortunately they got back on track to finish, but any season that features a 6 game losing streak is a problem.

    His most consistent season was likely his first but even that one was 2 wins, then 3 losses, then 3 wins, then 3 losses before going 5-1 to finish.

    I'm starting to have a problem with a coach that can't seem to pick his teams up quickly when they go off the rails.

    He's fully a momentum coach, which is great when they are on a roll but you can't trust them when times are tough.
    Really hard to judge Maas.
    2nd half of 2018 was with a QB in Mike Reilly who didn't want to be here and basically checked out.
    2nd half of 2019 - Harris injured and dealing with sub standard back up QB.
    This is why I tend to think he'll be back next year.
    ----------------------
    "When you're playing good football, it's good football and if you don't have good football, then you're not really playing good football" - John Madden

  9. #39
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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Messiah View Post
    Really hard to judge Maas.
    2nd half of 2018 was with a QB in Mike Reilly who didn't want to be here and basically checked out.
    2nd half of 2019 - Harris injured and dealing with sub standard back up QB.
    This is why I tend to think he'll be back next year.
    Though I see that logic, we're now into the fourth year where we've been able to make an excuse every year. At some point, I'm tired of excuses. Personally, I'd love if they found a way to squeak out a victory this weekend with Kilgore or Briscoe, then get Harris back after the bye for the back to backs against Saskatchewan and see them win at least one of them.

    If that happened, I can maybe give him a pass, because ultimately, I want to see him succeed as I love most of the players from his era.

    But there is this nagging feeling that even with a healthy Harris we lose these games we've lost, as I suspect he was still okay for the Winnipeg game, Harris has never beat Calgary in his career, and considering the Esks haven't beat anyone of quality even with Harris, I see those Hamilton games as losses as well. So should we absolve him because his QB was injured when they likely lose even if he's healthy? His job is to get them to win. They haven't done enough of that in the last two years against quality teams.

    On a separate note, for the QB check out last year, how much of that is Reilly checking out or was it the team cohesion falling out contributing to Reilly checking out. We saw signs of team fracture again this year only 2 weeks after they were tied for first place. Do we ignore that because of a QB injury?

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Dickinson lost his starting QB on the third play from scrimmage.
    Steinhauer lost his starting QB in the first third of the season, hasn’t missed a beat.
    Khari inherited a team that was the laughing stock of the league prior to his hire, just days before their first game.

    The injury excuse holds no water for me this year. Most of the key injuries were to start the year and they played great to start. Mid season the roster change has been more due to guys returning with the exception of Harris. The Harris injury is huge, but as pointed out, none of the three first year coaches having success right now are using their original starter anymore. In fact, every team ahead of them in the standings has been short their intended starter for as many if not more games than Harris has been out.

    My concern remains that every year with Mass we see a horrible mid-season stretch, and last year that continued until the end of the season. If it continues through the end of the season again. It’s a trend that is worrisome.
    So Kavis Reed should be GM of the year.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks1975 View Post
    So Kavis Reed should be GM of the year.
    It's funny, but there could be an argument for that, but you also can't overlook all the shenanigans that he oversaw prior the team gelling like this. Perhaps it's their final EFF YOU to him on the way into obscurity.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Damn those shenangans! They are like what PED's are to players.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esks1975 View Post
    So Kavis Reed should be GM of the year.
    Positive consequences?

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    For the Oline injuries, I haven't detected any issues from them that has led to the current results. Though I haven't checked, I suspect they are still near the top of the list in preventing sacks (checked after posting and still first by a significant margin).

    How have we run the ball? A ton of people on here complain about Gable and his run style but the run game is at least as much on the OL

    As for 3/4 of the LB out at once, I'm not following what you are saying. Of the starting LBs last Friday, Dean has played in all 15 games, as has Diggs, and Unamba has played 8 straight since his stint on the 6 game list The backup Rouyer has also dressed all 15 games, and CMT was in for 9 of the games that JSK missed to start the season. The only other one on the injured list right now is Smith, who is a serviceable backup who played in 7 of the games.

    Never said they were all out at one time. Over the course of the year we've had 75% of the LB injured. The middle of any D cannot take those types of losses.

    I don't know for sure what the tabbies have missed or the riders, but I don't see the Esks injury situation this year nearly as dire as it had been two years ago or even last year. Particularly as some of the good players who were injured, started the year injured and their replacements have stepped in and played pretty well in their absence.

    Again, Harris is a huge blow. But the job of the coaching staff is to make sure the other guys are ready in case of injury, and if they aren't good enough to push the agenda with the GM to get them what they need. If Edmonton was the only team to have lost its starting QB for significant time this year, I'd give a bit of slack, but the reality is everyone else in the league (except maybe Ottawa) has adapted better when the need arose.

    This is the key, if the coaches can't get them ready to play, whose fault is it? You say the coaches, I would argue its the GM not bringing guys in who are ready.
    At the QB spot, this is especially true, and something that a ton of posters brought up all the way back in May.

    This will be my last post on this topic, JM doesn't deserve to be canned this year for this roster and the results. My opinion.
    The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

    Vince Lombardi

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    This will be my last post on this topic, JM doesn't deserve to be canned this year for this roster and the results. My opinion.
    I don't think he will be canned. He does make some boneheaded choices sometimes, though. And his teams are always taking unacceptable amounts of penalties. But, I doubt he gets canned.
    "Of all the so-called virtues, the most over-rated is faith" - Christopher Hitchens

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    This will be my last post on this topic, JM doesn't deserve to be canned this year for this roster and the results. My opinion.
    I'm detecting anger in the response. I certainly wasn't intending to be antagonistic.

    Frankly, I'm a fan of Maas' and have been wanting him to succeed all along. But we can't go year by year blaming everything else but him, when quite frankly he's the only one that's been here the entire time he's been coach except for 3 or 4 players. He's had different GMs. Different QBs. Different Coordinators. Different players, but lot of the issues seem to be the same... poor team discipline (and I'm not just saying penalties), prolonged slumps, and below average results against the better half of the league.

    Why shouldn't he wear a large part of the blame. At some point we do have to look at him and find what it is that he's doing to elevate the team to better results than just personel.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    I'm detecting anger in the response. I certainly wasn't intending to be antagonistic.
    No anger at all, 2 passionate fans with opposing view points, no need to continue beating the drum over how we feel.
    The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

    Vince Lombardi

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    I think people are underestimating the effect of such a huge amount of roster turnover. Yes, it happens to a degree every year but, for the Eskimos, it matters who. After Adarius & Odell last year, they lost Mike, JC & Grymesy this year - all important from a leadership perspective.

    Brock got some really good free agents, but that doesnít a team make. It takes time to gel on & off the field...AND I will state categorically that last year & this year, not having Odell made a huge difference in terms of the glue (or lack thereof) that holds everyone together. People donít know everything he does off the field & outside the locker room to create T.E.A.M.
    [Aside: Donít think BC would be the cohesive team it is after 10 losses if it was Solly there rather than Odell.]

    This pre-season there was SO much talk about team building & ďfamilyĒ coming out if the EE camp. When they talk about it THAT much, you wonder why. Are these guys truly playing for & accountable to each other? I donít know - but Jason can only do so much (regardless of how much he emotes).

    BS has set up his perfect scapegoat. Jason deserves better than that.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    ^Jason's done a lot of things himself too that leads me to see him being canned. Don't blame this ALL on Brock, which I know you and a few others love to do.

  20. #50

    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    I'm detecting anger in the response. I certainly wasn't intending to be antagonistic.

    Frankly, I'm a fan of Maas' and have been wanting him to succeed all along. But we can't go year by year blaming everything else but him, when quite frankly he's the only one that's been here the entire time he's been coach except for 3 or 4 players. He's had different GMs. Different QBs. Different Coordinators. Different players, but lot of the issues seem to be the same... poor team discipline (and I'm not just saying penalties), prolonged slumps, and below average results against the better half of the league.

    Why shouldn't he wear a large part of the blame. At some point we do have to look at him and find what it is that he's doing to elevate the team to better results than just personel.
    And despite all that adversity he is still only four games behind O'Shea in total wins over that time period, even though O'Shea has had an infinity more stable organization around him. I'm not saying he is absolved of all blame because as you say, there are some disheartening trends, but I disagree with those that think his overall impact on the franchise has been so negative that he deserves to lose his job (I'm not implying you're one of them because I don't think you are if I'm reading your posts right.)

    I still see a ton of potential in Maas in regards to his leadership ability, his willingness to hold himself accountable, his desire to grow as a coach as evidenced by the little changes he's made after learning certain lessons along the way, and the fact that he's still a super young coach. I'm of the opinion that if you believe in a person then you let them rise up to the adversity and transcend it, rather than just dumping them to the curb for having gone through some tough times.

    I'd give him one more year, but if the Esks do end up making a rash decision then I have no doubt Jason will end up a HC somewhere else in the not too distant future.
    Last edited by ben_the_eskimo; 10-09-2019 at 01:21 PM.

  21. #51

    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    This is a valid criticism, one that was glaring to me post training camp. Let's hope Briscoe develops the right way and is the next Dane Evans but we didn't have the horses to cover a Harris injury this year.

    Everytime Kilgor throws up a long bomb I feel like he's playing a game of 500. Wonder if he yells "50 points" as he's chucking it
    I was never a fan of the Kilgor signing right from day 1.

    From what I remembered of his Toronto days I didn't think he had what it takes to play in this league, I hoped he would prove me wrong but so far I can't say I'm surprised with what I've see from him.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by ben_the_eskimo View Post
    And despite all that adversity he is still only four games behind O'Shea in total wins over that time period, even though O'Shea has had an infinity more stable organization around him. I'm not saying he is absolved of all blame because as you say, there are some disheartening trends, but I disagree with those that think his overall impact on the franchise has been so negative that he deserves to lose his job (I'm not implying you're one of them because I don't think you are if I'm reading your posts right.)

    I still see a ton of potential in Maas in regards to his leadership ability, his willingness to hold himself accountable, his desire to grow as a coach as evidenced by the little changes he's made after learning certain lessons along the way, and the fact that he's still a super young coach. I'm of the opinion that if you believe in a person then you let them rise up to the adversity and transcend it, rather than just dumping them to the curb for having gone through some tough times.

    I'd give him one more year, but if the Esks do end up making a rash decision then I have no doubt Jason will end up a HC somewhere else in the not too distant future.
    I'm pretty much with you on this take, just wanted to provide a decent counter point to the narrative that continues to look elsewhere for blame. I'm perfectly fine with him getting another year, but I'm finally in the court that also wouldn't be overly upset if they went a different direction.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    The only thing that matters in professional sports is winning. We are not winning now and haven't for the past few years. Every team has roster turn over, every team has injuries and every team has a bit of bad luck. Frankly the Esks just aren't good enough. You don't have to be an expert to see we don't have enough talent. In my opinion you can question if they are well coached. Are they well managed? The answer has to be no. We used to be the class of the league when it came to best management. We are not there anymore and haven't been for a while...

    Leadership comes from top down. Time for some capable leadership or hard to see anything improving any time soon. I think Lions come in and kick ass (unfortunately!)

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtuck09 View Post
    ^Jason's done a lot of things himself too that leads me to see him being canned. Don't blame this ALL on Brock, which I know you and a few others love to do.
    No, you’re misunderstanding on purpose. I don’t think Jason is perfect & he still has a lot to learn.
    However, his upside outweighs the downside & he can only do so much as a head coach. He was extended in the hopes that that would push Reilly to want to stay, but it also makes him an easy target now.

    Brock did the best he could player personnel-wise, but signing a half dozen all-stars does not a team make. Anyway, everyone knows the GM position is more stable than the head coach. J will be gone first, no doubt. I just think a lot of people have a very tilted view.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    I just think a lot of people have a very tilted view.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    ^Smartie, you just basically called yourself out...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie123 View Post
    No, you’re misunderstanding on purpose. I don’t think Jason is perfect & he still has a lot to learn.
    However, his upside outweighs the downside & he can only do so much as a head coach. He was extended in the hopes that that would push Reilly to want to stay, but it also makes him an easy target now.

    Brock did the best he could player personnel-wise, but signing a half dozen all-stars does not a team make. Anyway, everyone knows the GM position is more stable than the head coach. J will be gone first, no doubt. I just think a lot of people have a very tilted view.
    His upside? He's a good OC, not a good HC in my opinion.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Sigh........

  28. #58

    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Jason’s response to handling last game and his breakdown of the keys to victory this week on the coaches show was very interesting. He talked a lot about the importance of hitting Mike and making him pay if he decides to take off and run.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtuck09 View Post
    His upside? He's a good OC, not a good HC in my opinion.

    He has virtually the same record as O’Shea who’s had way more stability and is regarded as a good HC by most.
    Last edited by ben_the_eskimo; 10-10-2019 at 09:03 AM.

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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    Quote Originally Posted by ben_the_eskimo View Post
    Jason’s response to handling last game and his breakdown of the keys to victory this week on the coaches show was very interesting. He talked a lot about the importance of hitting Mike and making him pay if he decides to take off and run.

    - - - Updated - - -




    He has virtually the same record as O’Shea who’s had way more stability and is regarded as a good HC by most.

    - - - Updated - - -




    He has virtually the same record as O’Shea who’s had way more stability and is regarded as a good HC by most.
    I've argued the same thing previously and even doubled down that Maas actually has a better playoff record.

    My concern now is that you can see that the Bombers have at least improved year over year, whereas Esks are going backwards. However, I'm even now starting to second guess O'Shea as he can't seem to get through to Streveler, and without Harris cheating they are looking much more mortal. So perhaps the team improvements were more of an illusion than I thought.


    For those that keep arguing about who else is out there. I'd offer up Tommy Condell as at least worth examining. His resume is pretty long. Most in offensive positions but some special teams experience as well. He is having some real success with a backup QB as an offensive coordinator. If you could convince Lolley to stay, that may be a pretty decent combination.

    There are likely some others out there as well. As already raised, we have four first year coaches in the CFL this year, 3 of which are doing awesome, and the other started horribly but has the team playing in such a way that many of us are already conceding defeat on Saturday.
    Last edited by bone; 10-10-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  30. #60
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    Re: Just Throwing It Out There...

    I often wonder if Maas/Lolley aren't the greatest in adjustments. We looked great in the beginning but as soon as teams started to scheme against our D or to stop our O neither have worked in kinks to counter that. This is especially on D...

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