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Thread: Esks special teams

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    Hype Esks special teams

    Ha! Already put this in the CFL thread but Cuthbert is a tough loss. Will nice to hear him call hockey again.

    My favourite calls from him:

    - Gizmo return in the 96 Grey cup
    - Ray to Stamps against the Stamps in 2009.
    - SJ Green catch against the Riders
    - Ledbetter to Flutie in the LDR
    - Lions with McManus to Flutie to beat the Stamps in west final
    Quote from Inquiring Mind:

    Of course stamphater is sacred... we all worship the ground he walks on.

    #PizStrong

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    I was at that game in 2009 but I always record games I go to in case I want to check it out again. Watched that one as soon as soon as I made the trip home and was not disappointed.

    “Ray Looking Endzone....Fred...Stamps...TOUCHDOWN”

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ru8mSib-k
    Last edited by T-BONE; 06-05-2020 at 04:56 PM.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    So that Jackson guy. The guy catching all those kicks and getting this thing called return yardage. Seems like it would be a good thing to get in a game assuming it's still allowed. Are you still allowed to get return yardage in a game? I've watch a lot of Esks games since 2009 and I haven't seen a lot of return yardage so I just assumed it wasn't allowed in the rules anymore. Is that what a kick returner looks like? I am an Esks fan, I haven't seen a kick returner in a long time so I wasn't sure.
    Blindly accept whatever they do and if it doesn't work out, I guess there's always next year.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    So that Jackson guy. The guy catching all those kicks and getting this thing called return yardage. Seems like it would be a good thing to get in a game assuming it's still allowed. Are you still allowed to get return yardage in a game? I've watch a lot of Esks games since 2009 and I haven't seen a lot of return yardage so I just assumed it wasn't allowed in the rules anymore. Is that what a kick returner looks like? I am an Esks fan, I haven't seen a kick returner in a long time so I wasn't sure.
    Kendial Lawrence is wondering if you watched the 2015 playoffs?

    That return aside I agree that we haven't had a whole lot to cheer about since.
    Blindly criticize every move eventough I have about 1/4 of the information

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    So that Jackson guy. The guy catching all those kicks and getting this thing called return yardage. Seems like it would be a good thing to get in a game assuming it's still allowed. Are you still allowed to get return yardage in a game? I've watch a lot of Esks games since 2009 and I haven't seen a lot of return yardage so I just assumed it wasn't allowed in the rules anymore. Is that what a kick returner looks like? I am an Esks fan, I haven't seen a kick returner in a long time so I wasn't sure.
    Pretty sad that the team that had the greatest kick returner in pro football history can't find one in 20 years.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Looner View Post
    Kendial Lawrence is wondering if you watched the 2015 playoffs?

    That return aside I agree that we haven't had a whole lot to cheer about since.
    You got me Looner. You are right and I am completely wrong on this. I never should have said what I said. I apologize and hope you can somehow forgive such a terrible mistake. In the DECADE since that highlight package, you are right, there have been guys who maybe for a couple of series, maybe a quarter or maybe even an entire game, had a good stretch. I was more referring to a return guy actually providing field position somewhat consistently game after game maybe even for a few seasons rather than the odd time an opposing player missing a block and he gets more than a couple of yards. But are right. Lawrence did have a good playoff in 2015. For a very short period of time, the Esks got some return yardage.

    I made a sarcastic comment about the Esks lacking an overal return game for the last decade but in that comment, I did not list off the individual performances where an Esks player had a couple of good runs like I apparently should have. That was a mistake on my part that I will have to live with for a very, very long time. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
    Blindly accept whatever they do and if it doesn't work out, I guess there's always next year.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Strange times we live in. Our Oilers thread has been hijacked by bickering about the Esks lack of kick returners!

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    You got me Looner. You are right and I am completely wrong on this. I never should have said what I said. I apologize and hope you can somehow forgive such a terrible mistake. In the DECADE since that highlight package, you are right, there have been guys who maybe for a couple of series, maybe a quarter or maybe even an entire game, had a good stretch. I was more referring to a return guy actually providing field position somewhat consistently game after game maybe even for a few seasons rather than the odd time an opposing player missing a block and he gets more than a couple of yards. But are right. Lawrence did have a good playoff in 2015. For a very short period of time, the Esks got some return yardage.

    I made a sarcastic comment about the Esks lacking an overal return game for the last decade but in that comment, I did not list off the individual performances where an Esks player had a couple of good runs like I apparently should have. That was a mistake on my part that I will have to live with for a very, very long time. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
    I think you need to read the second part of my post, where I agreed with you.

    You were not even a little bit wrong with your post Q, not even a little. I was just interjecting a talking point as I believe that may have been the last one we've seen but I could be wrong.
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    I was curious, so I went and checked the regular season stats for return TDs for the last 25 seasons:

    1995: 1 (Punt Return)
    1996: 3 (Punt Returns)
    1997: 1 (Punt Return)
    1998: 1 (Punt Return)
    1999: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2000: 1 (Missed Field Goal)
    2001: 1 (Punt Return)
    2002: 1 (Punt Return)
    2003: 1 (Kickoff Return)
    2004: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2005: 4 (3 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2006: 0
    2007: 0
    2008: 3 (2 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2009: 1 (Punt Return)
    2010: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2011: 1 (Punt Return)
    2012: 0
    2013: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2014: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2015: 1 (Punt Return)
    2016: 0
    2017: 0
    2018: 0
    2019: 0

    2006-07 was a pretty bad time for us as we all remember, but honestly 2016-2019 sticks out the most to me. We had a couple of return TDs in 2013 and 2014, and as Lonnie pointed out, we had a post-season return TD in 2015 along with 1 regular season one. Take away the last 4 seasons, and it looks about average, but not "awful", IMO.

    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves
    Last edited by 56Parkies; 06-09-2020 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Did 25 years instead of 20
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    I was curious, so I went and checked the regular season stats for return TDs for the last 25 seasons:

    1995: 1 (Punt Return)
    1996: 3 (Punt Returns)
    1997: 1 (Punt Return)
    1998: 1 (Punt Return)
    1999: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2000: 1 (Missed Field Goal)
    2001: 1 (Punt Return)
    2002: 1 (Punt Return)
    2003: 1 (Kickoff Return)
    2004: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2005: 4 (3 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2006: 0
    2007: 0
    2008: 3 (2 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2009: 1 (Punt Return)
    2010: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2011: 1 (Punt Return)
    2012: 0
    2013: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2014: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2015: 1 (Punt Return)
    2016: 0
    2017: 0
    2018: 0
    2019: 0

    2006-07 was a pretty bad time for us as we all remember, but honestly 2016-2019 sticks out the most to me. We had a couple of return TDs in 2013 and 2014, and as Lonnie pointed out, we had a post-season return TD in 2015 along with 1 regular season one. Take away the last 4 seasons, and it looks about average, but not "awful", IMO.

    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves
    Thanks for that, my memory has served me well in this case
    Blindly criticize every move eventough I have about 1/4 of the information

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Was it last season when the Esks ran back one against Calgary on Labour Day to finally end the streak of no return TDs....just to come back due to penalty.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves
    I know that opinion is unconventional, to say the least. But I'll bet it was made based on the numbers. How many kick and punt returns end up costing rather than gaining yards due to blocking penalties? And I bet there are more turnovers (some eventually resulting in scores in the other direction) than there are TD returns. Don't know if Maas's opinion is correct, but I expect it's a lot closer than our quick gut reactions suggest.

    Man, I wish I had time to look at this more closely.
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Priorities glenvb!

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by glenvb View Post
    I know that opinion is unconventional, to say the least. But I'll bet it was made based on the numbers. How many kick and punt returns end up costing rather than gaining yards due to blocking penalties? And I bet there are more turnovers (some eventually resulting in scores in the other direction) than there are TD returns. Don't know if Maas's opinion is correct, but I expect it's a lot closer than our quick gut reactions suggest.

    Man, I wish I had time to look at this more closely.
    To me it's more than just TDs though; I need to go back and see what the average starting point of the Esks' drives were during the 2016-2019 years vs years previously. We tended to start drives in the shadows of our goalposts it felt like, and long, sustained drives in a 3-down league are harder to do than shorter ones that start on average at, say, the 35 vs the 10.

    Then again, that can just be my perception of things; maybe we were no better nor worse than other teams. But it sure felt like we were always losing in the field position exchange with other teams.
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    I was curious, so I went and checked the regular season stats for return TDs for the last 25 seasons:

    1995: 1 (Punt Return)
    1996: 3 (Punt Returns)
    1997: 1 (Punt Return)
    1998: 1 (Punt Return)
    1999: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2000: 1 (Missed Field Goal)
    2001: 1 (Punt Return)
    2002: 1 (Punt Return)
    2003: 1 (Kickoff Return)
    2004: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2005: 4 (3 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2006: 0
    2007: 0
    2008: 3 (2 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2009: 1 (Punt Return)
    2010: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2011: 1 (Punt Return)
    2012: 0
    2013: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2014: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2015: 1 (Punt Return)
    2016: 0
    2017: 0
    2018: 0
    2019: 0

    2006-07 was a pretty bad time for us as we all remember, but honestly 2016-2019 sticks out the most to me. We had a couple of return TDs in 2013 and 2014, and as Lonnie pointed out, we had a post-season return TD in 2015 along with 1 regular season one. Take away the last 4 seasons, and it looks about average, but not "awful", IMO.

    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves

    I'm honestly blanking on that - who and when? We didn't have one in the West Final, and I don't think we had one in the Grey Cup.

    But we did have one in the 2014 west semi.
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by gizmo fan 2 View Post
    I'm honestly blanking on that - who and when? We didn't have one in the West Final, and I don't think we had one in the Grey Cup.

    But we did have one in the 2014 west semi.
    Yes sorry - that was a typo; should have read 2014.
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    I was curious, so I went and checked the regular season stats for return TDs for the last 25 seasons:

    1995: 1 (Punt Return)
    1996: 3 (Punt Returns)
    1997: 1 (Punt Return)
    1998: 1 (Punt Return)
    1999: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2000: 1 (Missed Field Goal)
    2001: 1 (Punt Return)
    2002: 1 (Punt Return)
    2003: 1 (Kickoff Return)
    2004: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2005: 4 (3 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2006: 0
    2007: 0
    2008: 3 (2 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2009: 1 (Punt Return)
    2010: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2011: 1 (Punt Return)
    2012: 0
    2013: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2014: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2015: 1 (Punt Return)
    2016: 0
    2017: 0
    2018: 0
    2019: 0

    2006-07 was a pretty bad time for us as we all remember, but honestly 2016-2019 sticks out the most to me. We had a couple of return TDs in 2013 and 2014, and as Lonnie pointed out, we had a post-season return TD in 2015 along with 1 regular season one. Take away the last 4 seasons, and it looks about average, but not "awful", IMO.

    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves
    Nice that you checked deeply into. Overall it still looks bad compared to the seasons prior, but to be fair, Gizmo was probably the best ever. The Wayne Gretzky of kick returns, if you will, so everything looks bad by comparison.

    The damning part though is certainly these last four years. Not only have they not made the returns, they seldomly get more than 5-10 yards. When you factor that rules have been implemented to improve special teams returns and last year yielded a crazy number of returns league wide, it truly sticks out as a huge deficiency in our recent game. But your stats show it's more a recent issue as opposed to a 25 year issue, but it certainly hasn't been a strength in about 15 years.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by bone View Post
    Nice that you checked deeply into. Overall it still looks bad compared to the seasons prior, but to be fair, Gizmo was probably the best ever. The Wayne Gretzky of kick returns, if you will, so everything looks bad by comparison.

    The damning part though is certainly these last four years. Not only have they not made the returns, they seldomly get more than 5-10 yards. When you factor that rules have been implemented to improve special teams returns and last year yielded a crazy number of returns league wide, it truly sticks out as a huge deficiency in our recent game. But your stats show it's more a recent issue as opposed to a 25 year issue, but it certainly hasn't been a strength in about 15 years.
    Actually, on the list from 1995-2019, Gizmo had only 3 PR and 1 KR TD, for 4 total return TDs in his last 6 years in the league. He racked up 27 return TDs from 1986 through 1994, and the drop-off happened after the 1994 season, where he had 3 (2 PR, 1 MFG).
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    I was curious, so I went and checked the regular season stats for return TDs for the last 25 seasons:

    1995: 1 (Punt Return)
    1996: 3 (Punt Returns)
    1997: 1 (Punt Return)
    1998: 1 (Punt Return)
    1999: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2000: 1 (Missed Field Goal)
    2001: 1 (Punt Return)
    2002: 1 (Punt Return)
    2003: 1 (Kickoff Return)
    2004: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2005: 4 (3 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2006: 0
    2007: 0
    2008: 3 (2 Punt Returns, 1 Kickoff Return)
    2009: 1 (Punt Return)
    2010: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2011: 1 (Punt Return)
    2012: 0
    2013: 2 (Punt Returns)
    2014: 2 (Kickoff Returns)
    2015: 1 (Punt Return)
    2016: 0
    2017: 0
    2018: 0
    2019: 0

    2006-07 was a pretty bad time for us as we all remember, but honestly 2016-2019 sticks out the most to me. We had a couple of return TDs in 2013 and 2014, and as Lonnie pointed out, we had a post-season return TD in 2015 along with 1 regular season one. Take away the last 4 seasons, and it looks about average, but not "awful", IMO.

    I wonder how much of this lays at the feet of the head coaches' position on special teams? Maas famously said he just wanted a guy who could secure the ball and then fall down without turning it over. The results, to me anyway, speak for themselves
    Getting a punt or kick return touch down is really great but when I think of a good returner, I am thinking of a guy who consistently gives the team better field position quarter after quarter, game after game. I'd gladly not have a single TD scored on a kick return if the guy the Esks have was giving the team 10-15 yards or more on a punt rather then the 3-5 yards they usually get and that's only because of no yards. Other teams year after year seem to have a guy who when the blocking isn't perfect and he seems surrounded, more times than not he's getting 12-15 yards just on his own. When the Esks blocking isn't perfect, our guy might get 5. Looner mentioned o me Lawrence had a good 2015 playoff run. Great, what about the rest of the games? Maybe I am wrong but I don't remember the Esks return game being much that year. I honestly can't remember the last time the Esks had a guy who was an actual threat to give them yards. Sure guys bust the odd one or get lucky and get a TD once in a blue moon but for the most part over the years, if a guy gets 10 yards, fans are in shock and going nuts. I can't remember the last time I watched a game where I expected anything to happen during a punt. When I used to go to games regularly, if I had to pee mid quarter I would go during an Esks punt return because I knew I wouldn't miss anything and 98% of the time I didn't. When Gizmo was around and I get he was the best ever, you didn't leave your seat when it was his time because something would happen frequently. Either a TD or he would bust big returns all the time and I don't think it was all on the blockers. He just could do that. There will probably never be another Gizmo but other teams seem to get guys who can regularly get return yardage and I have a hard time believing it's all solely because of the blockers.

    Other than Tristian Jackson, has anyone gone from the Esks to another team and excelled at returns? I am asking because if the problem has been the coaches holding guys back or the Esks blocking with all the new guys coming in and out and all the new coaches over they years, the Esks blocking is somehow that much worse than all other teams, you'd think if a guy was a good returner as soon as he went to another team, he'd do well. I don't pretend to know every Esks player who caught kicks then moved on so maybe there was a guy but none stick out to me.
    Blindly accept whatever they do and if it doesn't work out, I guess there's always next year.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    Getting a punt or kick return touch down is really great but when I think of a good returner, I am thinking of a guy who consistently gives the team better field position quarter after quarter, game after game. I'd gladly not have a single TD scored on a kick return if the guy the Esks have was giving the team 10-15 yards or more on a punt rather then the 3-5 yards they usually get and that's only because of no yards. Other teams year after year seem to have a guy who when the blocking isn't perfect and he seems surrounded, more times than not he's getting 12-15 yards just on his own. When the Esks blocking isn't perfect, our guy might get 5. Looner mentioned o me Lawrence had a good 2015 playoff run. Great, what about the rest of the games? Maybe I am wrong but I don't remember the Esks return game being much that year. I honestly can't remember the last time the Esks had a guy who was an actual threat to give them yards. Sure guys bust the odd one or get lucky and get a TD once in a blue moon but for the most part over the years, if a guy gets 10 yards, fans are in shock and going nuts. I can't remember the last time I watched a game where I expected anything to happen during a punt. When I used to go to games regularly, if I had to pee mid quarter I would go during an Esks punt return because I knew I wouldn't miss anything and 98% of the time I didn't. When Gizmo was around and I get he was the best ever, you didn't leave your seat when it was his time because something would happen frequently. Either a TD or he would bust big returns all the time and I don't think it was all on the blockers. He just could do that. There will probably never be another Gizmo but other teams seem to get guys who can regularly get return yardage and I have a hard time believing it's all solely because of the blockers.

    Other than Tristian Jackson, has anyone gone from the Esks to another team and excelled at returns? I am asking because if the problem has been the coaches holding guys back or the Esks blocking with all the new guys coming in and out and all the new coaches over they years, the Esks blocking is somehow that much worse than all other teams, you'd think if a guy was a good returner as soon as he went to another team, he'd do well. I don't pretend to know every Esks player who caught kicks then moved on so maybe there was a guy but none stick out to me.
    Wasn't sure either so I went and looked at the 2015 stats as I remember that year being not that bad. In that year Kendial Lawrence was our primary returner and he finished:

    2nd in punt return yards
    4th in punt return average (with guys that have 40 or more returns) behind Banks, Logan and Rainey
    8th in kick return average (with guys that had over 25 returns)

    https://www.cfl.ca/stats?stat_catego...returns&filter[season][eq]=2015&group_by=player

    Not great but not the worst
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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    Getting a punt or kick return touch down is really great but when I think of a good returner, I am thinking of a guy who consistently gives the team better field position quarter after quarter, game after game. I'd gladly not have a single TD scored on a kick return if the guy the Esks have was giving the team 10-15 yards or more on a punt rather then the 3-5 yards they usually get and that's only because of no yards. Other teams year after year seem to have a guy who when the blocking isn't perfect and he seems surrounded, more times than not he's getting 12-15 yards just on his own. When the Esks blocking isn't perfect, our guy might get 5. Looner mentioned o me Lawrence had a good 2015 playoff run. Great, what about the rest of the games? Maybe I am wrong but I don't remember the Esks return game being much that year. I honestly can't remember the last time the Esks had a guy who was an actual threat to give them yards. Sure guys bust the odd one or get lucky and get a TD once in a blue moon but for the most part over the years, if a guy gets 10 yards, fans are in shock and going nuts. I can't remember the last time I watched a game where I expected anything to happen during a punt. When I used to go to games regularly, if I had to pee mid quarter I would go during an Esks punt return because I knew I wouldn't miss anything and 98% of the time I didn't. When Gizmo was around and I get he was the best ever, you didn't leave your seat when it was his time because something would happen frequently. Either a TD or he would bust big returns all the time and I don't think it was all on the blockers. He just could do that. There will probably never be another Gizmo but other teams seem to get guys who can regularly get return yardage and I have a hard time believing it's all solely because of the blockers.

    Other than Tristian Jackson, has anyone gone from the Esks to another team and excelled at returns? I am asking because if the problem has been the coaches holding guys back or the Esks blocking with all the new guys coming in and out and all the new coaches over they years, the Esks blocking is somehow that much worse than all other teams, you'd think if a guy was a good returner as soon as he went to another team, he'd do well. I don't pretend to know every Esks player who caught kicks then moved on so maybe there was a guy but none stick out to me.

    Sorry to keep this going, but as I remember it in 2015, the special teams weren't good to start, but Dickinson developed some schemes with Kendial that made it helpful down the stretch, plus they did have a few trick plays that helped. It was for a very short period, but special teams were okay once Dickinson got his systems entrenched.

    The only other one I can think of that was okay for at least yardage but not many touchdown was Winston October.

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    Re: Esks special teams

    Moved this chat into its own thread in the Esks forum instead of clogging up the hockey one, especially if we expect to see some hockey next month.
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    Re: Esks special teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 56Parkies View Post
    Moved this chat into its own thread in the Esks forum instead of clogging up the hockey one, especially if we expect to see some hockey next month.
    Is an interesting conversation in a time where those are hard to find. I'm curious to see if the transition to Milanovich is going to have any impact on this? Going to learn a lot about the structure and philosophies of Maas over the next few years..... should there be a next few years.
    Blindly criticize every move eventough I have about 1/4 of the information

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    Re: Esks special teams

    It is a great thread. Return games on both sides for the Esks have really been quite polarizing. They have had some great years on cover teams over these years. Quite often had been a bright spot on the team. But wow! Have return tds been hard to come by! Hope to see a little bit more of a dynamic run game when we get going.

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    Re: Esks special teams

    It’s such a difficult thing to look at because until recently, the CFLs stat sheet didn’t include average starting field position (started to include it in 2017) and that stat includes all drives, which means it also includes drives that started in great field position due to turnovers.

    When you look at the average starting field positions in 2019, they ranged between the 34-38 yard line which isn’t that big of a difference. The teams with the best starting field position were Hamilton and Winnipeg. Any guesses who the top two teams in big play returns were? (30+ yards punt returns, 40+ kick/missed fg returns)

    I feel like average field position over a full season is going to be marginally different between all teams but big plays (TD or not) can be game changers on any given game day.

    And yes, the Esks were last in big play returns last year with 5.

    Avert your eyes for 2018, the Esks had only 3 big play returns and two of them were missed field goals which are more likely to produce big plays.
    Last edited by T-BONE; 06-12-2020 at 07:29 PM.

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    Re: 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers Season Thread - Another Year of Stockholm Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    Getting a punt or kick return touch down is really great but when I think of a good returner, I am thinking of a guy who consistently gives the team better field position quarter after quarter, game after game.
    I feel the same way. For me there is nothing more frustrating than watching our offense start at our own 30 yard line or worse while the opposition consistently get their starts at their own 40 or sometimes better. Over the course of the game it really turns into an advantage and just another obstacle the Esks end up having to overcome in order to get the win.
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    Re: Esks special teams

    I would really like to know and I don't know if this is possible, how much of the Esks return woes are a result of the system vs the players doing the returns. Other than short spurts, the Esks IMO have lacked a consistent return game for a very long time and as I said, I don't mean TD's. TD's to me are a bonus, lots of things have to go right for them to happen. I am just talking about getting yardage consistently. The Esks have been swapping out special teams coordinators quite a bit over the years. They even did it mid season not long ago. So is it really systems? To me and I am not a pro coach so maybe I am wrong but to me, a punt returner should catch the ball and take off immediately. The opposition is running at you full speed so if the returner catches the ball and runs immediately, you are asking the opposition to stop in their tracks and change directions instantly. It's not happening. The opposition needs time to do that. They need to slow down and shift their body so they are moving towards the player. So if the returner is running at them, unless he runs right at the guy, he should be able to go past the defender as the defender tries to adjust himself. Even if the defender manages to somehow turn himself, if the returner is running, there is just no way the defender can slow down, turn, be in position and be ready to tackle a player running full speed. So every time I see an Esks player let the ball bounce or he catches it and stands there for a second as he looks, it drives me NUTS because any advantage he has is gone. Every time he does that, he has allowed the opposition to slow down and get ready at times they have had time to form basically a circle around the returner. So unless the opposition flat out misses their tackle, the returner has no chance of getting anything. So I just have a hard time with the idea that it's all system. I just don't see how a coach would tell his guys "catch the ball then stand there for a second or 2 so the defenders can be ready for you." Yet I see it a lot.

    I don't like bringing Gizmo up too much because he was the best of all time but I don't remember Giz catching the ball and standing that often. I am sure he did it sometimes but when I think of Giz, I think of this little guy running full speed, catching the ball in the air and just blowing by guys because they can't change directions in time to touch him. The defenders falling all over the place, damn near breaking their ankles trying to contort their bodies just to a piece. Banks before he became a prime time receiver was probably the best in the league currently. I don't pretend to watch a lot of Ticats games but when I did, I don't remember him catching the ball a ton and standing there that often. I am sure there are times he does but he seems to turn up the field in a hurry most times.
    Blindly accept whatever they do and if it doesn't work out, I guess there's always next year.

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    Re: Esks special teams

    Weird coincidence...was watching a 2017 "replay" game on TSN just last night...there was Banks, returning kicks, dancing around for a few seconds before trying to find a hole.

    He didn't get anywhere.
    Out of my mind; back in five minutes.

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    Re: Esks special teams

    Giz definitely did not stand around waiting for the ball... If he wasn't full speed at the time he caught it, it was pretty close and he already had options open to him as far as lanes. Tough to compare him to anyone because, well...because it's Gizmo. Our return game has had me so frustrated over the last 15 years or so... When you see other teams lighting up the league on ST's year after year though it has to be a perfect storm of coordinators and players not fitting the schemes.
    Well, gentlemen, by all means, I think we ought to have an introspective moment of silence for poor old Tin-Tin.

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    Re: Esks special teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Sectionq View Post
    I would really like to know and I don't know if this is possible, how much of the Esks return woes are a result of the system vs the players doing the returns. Other than short spurts, the Esks IMO have lacked a consistent return game for a very long time and as I said, I don't mean TD's. TD's to me are a bonus, lots of things have to go right for them to happen. I am just talking about getting yardage consistently. The Esks have been swapping out special teams coordinators quite a bit over the years. They even did it mid season not long ago. So is it really systems? To me and I am not a pro coach so maybe I am wrong but to me, a punt returner should catch the ball and take off immediately. The opposition is running at you full speed so if the returner catches the ball and runs immediately, you are asking the opposition to stop in their tracks and change directions instantly. It's not happening. The opposition needs time to do that. They need to slow down and shift their body so they are moving towards the player. So if the returner is running at them, unless he runs right at the guy, he should be able to go past the defender as the defender tries to adjust himself. Even if the defender manages to somehow turn himself, if the returner is running, there is just no way the defender can slow down, turn, be in position and be ready to tackle a player running full speed. So every time I see an Esks player let the ball bounce or he catches it and stands there for a second as he looks, it drives me NUTS because any advantage he has is gone. Every time he does that, he has allowed the opposition to slow down and get ready at times they have had time to form basically a circle around the returner. So unless the opposition flat out misses their tackle, the returner has no chance of getting anything. So I just have a hard time with the idea that it's all system. I just don't see how a coach would tell his guys "catch the ball then stand there for a second or 2 so the defenders can be ready for you." Yet I see it a lot.

    I don't like bringing Gizmo up too much because he was the best of all time but I don't remember Giz catching the ball and standing that often. I am sure he did it sometimes but when I think of Giz, I think of this little guy running full speed, catching the ball in the air and just blowing by guys because they can't change directions in time to touch him. The defenders falling all over the place, damn near breaking their ankles trying to contort their bodies just to a piece. Banks before he became a prime time receiver was probably the best in the league currently. I don't pretend to watch a lot of Ticats games but when I did, I don't remember him catching the ball a ton and standing there that often. I am sure there are times he does but he seems to turn up the field in a hurry most times.
    I think coaching schemes are the difference to turn short gains into medium gain (i.e. 5 yards vs. 10-15 yards). To get many big plays of 30+ yards in a season though, you need to have a player that is skilled at doing it in my opinion.

    The best special teams I can think of for the Esks in recent years was Dickinson and he helped the team improve a bit for field position, but ddn't have the players to get a whole bunch of big plays (30+ yards). Kendial was a smart versatile player so he worked okay within the system to at least get the 10-15 yard returns and managed a couple big plays, but a better returner in that group probably has several more big plays.

    Unfortunately, I've no idea how to prove this with stats, it's just a feeling.

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